How to make a game without requiring copy-pasta'd terrain.

[kukurumei]

I would like to point out another way to save memory while making large, detailed worlds. I can't remember the name of the technique, but there is an algorithm that causes very distant objects to be rendered in simple fashion, and gradually become more complex as the player approaches them. The idea is that it is pointless to have these very distant objects finely rendered, since the human eye can't discern the difference in detail at long distance. (few people have better than 20/20 vision) It's a fairly new technique, but it was used pretty well in Halo: Reach to make some impressively large maps. (Forgeworld alone was ginormus for a FPS mutliplayer map, and large even when compared to campagin levels for example)

Otherwise commonly termed "LoD" (level of detail). You swap around low resolution textures with high resolution textures in a streaming data flow.

None of it has anything realistically to do with copy and paste terrain(Lod is strictly a memory saving trick, and works with anything. Look at Drake's fortune for instance), unless they have a problem with HDD space.

Copy and paste terrain...is copy and paste. What else did anyone expect?. Nothing is going to solve it without good old grease work, or other wise known as paying your graphics artists.

Sure there are tons of work on procedural generation (otherwise known as random dungeon effect), but realistically, it's very hard to have a computer trick the human mind. It's easier and sometimes cheaper to have a human trick other humans.

They probably didn't want to pay the bill, so ended up copy and pasting. Either that or you had very stupid QC people that got tricked by their employees...given the horsebird incident I'm not willing to rule it out.

[gifthorse]

Otherwise commonly termed "LoD" (level of detail). You swap around low resolution textures with high resolution textures in a streaming data flow.

None of it has anything realistically to do with copy and paste terrain(Lod is strictly a memory saving trick, and works with anything. Look at Drake's fortune for instance), unless they have a problem with HDD space.

Copy and paste terrain...is copy and paste. What else did anyone expect?. Nothing is going to solve it without good old grease work, or other wise known as paying your graphics artists.

Sure there are tons of work on procedural generation (otherwise known as random dungeon effect), but realistically, it's very hard to have a computer trick the human mind. It's easier and sometimes cheaper to have a human trick other humans.

They probably didn't want to pay the bill, so ended up copy and pasting. Either that or you had very stupid QC people that got tricked by their employees...given the horsebird incident I'm not willing to rule it out.

Well it's also an issue of how much data can be loaded in between loading screens as much as it is an issue of constructing the data. Given that the zones aren't seamless, it's safe to assume that the content is loaded in whenever you 'zone' into a new area. Having too many unique objects cannot be realised with the current game engine (Crystal Tools) which doesn't feature game-world streaming technology. They would have to compromise on the size of the zones if they were to make the zones more unique.

... or fix their engine.

[kukurumei]

Well it's also an issue of how much data can be loaded in between loading screens as much as it is an issue of constructing the data. Given that the zones aren't seamless, it's safe to assume that the content is loaded in whenever you 'zone' into a new area. Having too many unique objects cannot be realised with the current game engine (Crystal Tools) which doesn't feature game-world streaming technology. They would have to compromise on the size of the zones if they were to make the zones more unique.

... or fix their engine.

Well if it was PC, I would say it's a non issue, but since it's definitely also PS3, yes, there is a point of no return if you throw too many unique textures into.

Though I doubt that's hardly the problem in this instance. Copy and pasting is a sign of cost saving, not a sign of engineering smoke and mirrors. Especially when you consider they copy and pasted stuff that are not remotely near each other. Aka procedural repetition on leaves is one thing, trees lined up is another.

Simply put they did not want to design another tent, or have an artist move branches and trees leaves around. heck the fact that FF14 is so copy and pasted, even it's map design is copy and pasted shows both a lack of talent and a lack of resources.

There was too much and too extensive cloning this time around to blame it on technical problems. There's no getting around that fact, it was lazy work.

[gifthorse]

Well if it was PC, I would say it's a non issue, but since it's definitely also PS3, yes, there is a point of no return if you throw too many unique textures into.

Though I doubt that's hardly the problem in this instance. Copy and pasting is a sign of cost saving, not a sign of engineering smoke and mirrors. Especially when you consider they copy and pasted stuff that are not remotely near each other. Aka procedural repetition on leaves is one thing, trees lined up is another.

Simply put they did not want to design another tent, or have an artist move branches and trees leaves around. heck the fact that FF14 is so copy and pasted, even it's map design is copy and pasted shows both a lack of talent and a lack of resources.

There was too much and too extensive cloning this time around to blame it on technical problems. There's no getting around that fact, it was lazy work.

Mapping terrain isnt hard. Surely it's more difficult to make it so it all fits together nicely.

Technical limitations are obvious reasons for the cloning. So i think some degree of cloning is necessary (using algorithms to mask it or by repeating the structures themselves). It would have been forgiveable if SE had cloned wisely.

[Akumu]

Mapping terrain isnt hard. Surely it's more difficult to make it so it all fits together nicely.

Technical limitations are obvious reasons for the cloning. It would have been forgiveable if they had cloned wisely.

Agreed. They could have at least TRIED to cover it up imo. My main issue with the old team is that everything seems to be done by some lazy hands. There are so many features in place(if not all) that feel incomplete. I'm not saying they didn't work hard but WTF HAPPENED? It's hard for me to give them(old team) some slack because I can't find anything that says "Perfect" or "Nicely done!"

However, I guess I can say at least my character moves realistically?

edit: Oh and good job with the graphics

[kukurumei]

Mapping terrain isnt hard. Surely it's more difficult to make it so it all fits together nicely.

Technical limitations are obvious reasons for the cloning. So i think some degree of cloning is necessary (using algorithms to mask it or by repeating the structures themselves). It would have been forgiveable if SE had cloned wisely.

Nope. If we take it on theory, then yes, maybe, but in this case, big fat nope.

We can clearly see where the "loads" are, because the maps are "boxy". That's an old engineer's trick, and that should have been most of what they needed. The copy and pasting on top of that smells of rush jobs, and laziness.

And they didn't even work that hard to hide the "box" trick.

What is the box trick? Look At the maps. big open area, long corridor, big area, long corridor, aka choke point, for a seamless load. Characters moving through that corridor = loading in background.

It's easy to spot, because the moment you look on the map, people will look for "short cuts" of course they are quick to realize, there exist none, because each section is closed off followed by a "tube" that connected to the next region. That is where the technical trick is.

Copy and pasting is a whole separate issue it seems, and one likely attributed to money.

[gifthorse]

Nope. If we take it on theory, then yes, maybe, but in this case, big fat nope.

We can clearly see where the "loads" are, because the maps are "boxy". That's an old engineer's trick, and that should have been most of what they needed. The copy and pasting on top of that smells of rush jobs, and laziness.

And they didn't even work that hard to hide the "box" trick.

What is the box trick? Look At the maps. big open area, long corridor, big area, long corridor, aka choke point, for a seamless load. Characters moving through that corridor = loading in background.

It's easy to spot, because the moment you look on the map, people will look for "short cuts" of course they are quick to realize, there exist none, because each section is closed off followed by a "tube" that connected to the next region. That is where the technical trick is.

Copy and pasting is a whole separate issue it seems, and one likely attributed to money.

I agree that it could have been disguised better, but the point I was making is that making a series of individual discrete objects and then fitting them together is more difficult than just making one giant discrete object. One object would require more data than several repeated ones, hence why SE chose the latter. Their attempts at disguising it failed though.

The goal is to make several smaller objects and then fit them together or superimpose them in such a way that it gives the impression of one, greater unique object. SE failed at fitting their smaller individual objects together, they didn't fail at making them.

After all, they can't just make infinite amounts of discrete objects with today's technology. I mean they can if they want to, but their engine can't load them all in. SE faces technological constraints on the amount of data they can load in. Using another engine may have helped, but they would have to then compromise on graphical quality.

I think those zone margins within the greater zones are more network-based, and probably don't alleviate as much stress on people's video cards and ram as you think. The mini zones within the zones are still using the same textures, and whatnot. The tunnels which conveniently separate the areas are most likely there so people can load in the arrangement of the objects while travelling rather than to help load in entirely new objects.

[kukurumei]

I agree that it could have been disguised better, but the point I was making is that making a series of individual discrete objects and then fitting them together is more difficult than just making one giant discrete object. One object would require more data than several repeated ones, hence why SE chose the latter. Their attempts at disguising it failed though.

The goal is to make several smaller objects and then fit them together or superimpose them in such a way that it gives the impression of one, greater unique object. SE failed at fitting their smaller individual objects together, they didn't fail at making them.

After all, they can't just make infinite amounts of discrete objects with today's technology. I mean they can if they want to, but their engine can't load them all in. SE faces technological constraints on the amount of data they can load in. Using another engine may have helped, but they would have to then compromise on graphical quality.

For example. A shack, if it was procedural, it would have been scaled, reshaped and maybe even colored differently or the arrangement of the camp would have been mixed and matched. None of that was even there.

I think those zone margins within the greater zones are more network-based, and probably don't alleviate as much stress on people's video cards and ram as you think. The mini zones within the zones are still using the same textures, and whatnot. The tunnels which conveniently separate the areas are most likely there so people can load in the arrangement of the objects while travelling rather than to help load in entirely new objects.

That's a a little far fetched to me. Since we know that Lod is indeed used in the engine, and the objects in general aren't very procedural in FF14. There isn't that much procedural work done, rather repetition, which begs the question, of what they are they trying to optimize here.

You would have a point if there is aggressive use of procedural work, which would lead to the conclusion they needed to squeeze that memory requirement, but given how the game is programmed, it's more of a question why didn't they use more of it to squeeze that memory requirement.

Copy and pasting objects as a technical solution is a last result ideal. The fact the game wasn't even squeezing it, and having regular old trees and tents and shacks put around over and over leads to different conclusions.

For example, if it was procedural, we would have had changed shaped, scaled, and maybe even different colors. That shows there were simply being dumped on to a scene, rather then manipulated like most procedural work.

Even then that's rather minimal compare to the graphics requirements. Server load balancing hand outs is like...a drop in the water to put a 3 minute corridor. There is no reason to be doing that unless the client is flushing the memory of behind, to load, in front.

We can always easily blame it on the engine, but then we can blame the engine for everything as ultimately, it's always a limitation of engines. The sad fact here is, there's too much and too overly done.

Something isn't adding up here. There are too many holes in the story where any decent graphics designer would immediately have made his living.

[indira]

funny thing is to stream you need a stong processor cuz it has to cache somewhere(ram/hdd/processor) and be pulled from that place and ffxi recomended processor is a i7 and thats in a static world how are you guys running pentinum 2's or laptops gonna play the game if it was streaming ? and recomended hardware is for playing the game at a decent setting, not high.

square should just stick to what they know and stop listening to people. people are gonna like or hate the game regardless of what they do, plain and simple cant make everyone like you.