SE Please implement a Chonoscroll/PLEX system in FFXIV: ARR

[Shougun]

You assume that those people need to farm as much gil as humanly possible, like the gil farmers do. In reality that's completely false, as all they need to farm is what they need to get their monthly item. The influence on the market is negligible, and comparing them to "chinese workshop farmers" is an extremization that voids your argument of any validity.



Actually, having been a game writer for 15 years and having discussed this kind of topic a ton of times with developers, industry professionals and other writers alike, yeah, I have a very clear idea of what "pay to win" means.

According to your overly simplistic definition *every* MMORPG can be defined pay to win one way or another. Including FFXIV 1.0. Of course, that's not the case.

My definition is the definition widely accepted by the industry, and as such the only one that counts, unless you're in the business of calling things with the wrong name for shock value.

It is amusing, though, to see how many people still apply the concept inappropriately to games in which paying doesn't give any sizable advantage over those that don't pay.



You misinterpreted it (probably intentionally).

People whose buying power increases - Those that sell PLEX/Chronoscrolls, because they have more gold.
People whose buying power decreases - Those that buy PLEX/Chronoscrolls, because they have less gold.
Everyone else is unaffected, because, inflation-wise the other two categories cancel each other out.

Again. You're making up theories that conflict with economical theory, and that have already been proven wrong by reality in two distinct games.

I've been Jesus since the begining, de facto my word is law. -_-

I don't care about your background - it means nothing to your actual logic only to the probability of such.

And your definition of pay to win is not the industry standard. The definition entails the ability to take competitive advantage by using real money.

As you are attempting to do to me, I can do the same.

You misunderstand everything, you dont know economy, its proven fact you are wrong.

There we are at crossroads.

I will always be against a system that involves ANY method of taking competitive advantage through use of real money - regardless of how you want to "define" it.

[Shougun]

And since the one that gave you the gil had his buying power reduced at the same time, the two instances cancel each other. No inflation is generated.

Oh the inflation would only happen because people would have a new reason to farm. Not because of switching of hands. That is to say as long as the amount of months sold is exactly the amount of game time being used, unlike the possibility of collecting 6 years of game time within a few months and selling it.

Not necessarily, because that someone can simply get 100000 gil normally.

No you are missing the point ( I think ) - the person who used real money got your 10 gil (smaller number, easier to work with ). BUT that person can also earn the 10 gil like you did normally. So in effect they have 20 gil.

Saying we have two people who play the same amount of time and work the same hours, only one is willing to spend his money. He will have more money then the person who isnt willing to. Therefore a p2w system has been accepted.

[Abriael]

I will always be against a system that involves ANY method of taking competitive advantage through use of real money - regardless of how you want to "define" it.

Then you may want to stop playing MMORPGs, because by your definition *every single MMORPG* is pay to win.

You can try tit for tat as much as you want, but the fact that there are two MMORPGs out there in which the idea has been applied with ample success without causing inflation, while in *no* instance, the idea has been applied unsuccessfully says you're wrong.

Oh the inflation would only happen because people would have a new reason to farm. Not because of switching of hands. That is to say as long as the amount of months sold is exactly the amount of game time being used, unlike the possibility of collecting 6 years of game time within a few months and selling it.

That "new reason to farm" is very limited, as anyone that wants to pay with his fee with gil only needs to farm what's necessary to do so a month.

As such, it's manageable, and far outweighted by the reduction of the inflation caused by RMT firms.

No you are missing the point ( I think ) - the person who used real money got your 10 gil (smaller number, easier to work with ). BUT that person can also earn the 10 gil like you did normally. So in effect they have 20 gil.

That's an assumption, because the person that earned gil normally can again farm more, and get more gil than the other. It involves no "pay to win" because even if I pay, I can't get nothing that another can't get with time or skill alone.

[Shougun]

Then you may want to stop playing MMORPG, because by your definition *every single MMORPG* is pay to win.

You can try tit for tat as much as you want, but the fact that there are two MMORPGs out there in which the idea has been applied with ample success without causing inflation, while in *no* instance, the idea has been applied unsuccessfully says you're wrong.

Hardly such. Everyone is paying for the right to log in with cash only. Everyone playing now has the same opportunities - ignoring illegal activities like buying from RMT.

Cross currency systems like PLEX create a p2w system. How nominal is hard to forecast - but the fact is the system has been created.

That's an assumption, because the person that earned gil normally can again farm more, and get more gil than the other. It involves no "pay to win" because even if I pay, I can't get nothing that another can't get with time or skill alone

You said it yourself here:

anyone that wants to pay with his fee with gil only needs to farm what's necessary to do so a month.

So a person who uses real money will make the amount it takes to pay for the pass every month.

Yes you can "work hard" to catch up - but if you have two exact people with one difference (one willing and one not) the person willing WILL be ahead. Not an assumption.

In the p2p system if you have two same people, they will be growing at the same rate. I prefer this system.

[Abriael]

Hardly such. Everyone is paying for the right to log in with cash only. Everyone playing now has the same opportunities - ignoring illegal activities like buying from RMT.

Eh, unfortunately not so. Example:

I have more money than you. Buy two computers. Got a collector's edition (that included two accounts). Pay the monthly fee for two accounts.
You have less money than me. Only one computer. Standard edition. Pay the monthly for only one account.

I can multibox, levelinking my two characters (which multiplies earnings by two) with one on tow. Use them for spiritbond, and when i'm out having fun i keep one crafting all the time making millions of gil (I know several people that do this, it' VERY easy with the new crafting, as it takes only a click every two seconds).

I have a very sizable advantage over you by spending more money on the game. By your definition, this is pay to win. Ergo FFXIV (and every MMO in which multiboxing is possible) is pay to win.

Yes you can "work hard" to catch up - but if you have two exact people with one difference (one willing and one not) the person willing WILL be ahead. Not an assumption.

A person with more money ALWAYS has ways to get ahead in every MMORPG. What distinguishes pay to win is when the other person has no way to catch up. For instance when the developer sells boosters that increase the attack power of the one that uses them.

That's what distinguishes an advantage from an unfair advantage.

[Shougun]

Eh, unfortunately not so.

I have more money than you. Buy two computers. Got a collector's edition (that included two accounts). Pay the monthly fee for two accounts.
You have less money than me. Only one computer. Standard edition. Pay the monthly for only one account.

I can multibox, levelinking my two characters (which multiplies earnings by two) with one on tow. Use them for spiritbond, and when i'm out having fun i keep one crafting all the time making millions of gil (I know several people that do this, it' VERY easy with the new crafting, as it takes only a click every two seconds).

I have a very sizable advantage over you by spending more money on the game. By your definition, this is pay to win. Ergo FFXIV (and every MMO in which multiboxing is possible) is pay to win.

You know in order to do the work in a dual box you have to work on that mule right? So if you want to PL yourself you have to first level the other character.

That being said I think this is the best thing I've read so far. It isnt a direct p2w, but it does seem to be an indirect system.

Perhaps I should argue against direct p2w systems need to gtfo. I'll think about that dual box in application of indirect p2w.

A person with more money ALWAYS has ways to get ahead in every MMORPG. What distinguishes pay to win is when the other person has no way to catch up. For instance when the developer sells boosters that increase the attack power of the one that uses them.

That's what distinguishes an advantage from an unfair advantage.

No, a p2w system doesnt mean there is no way to catch up. A p2w system only means that by using real money you can obtain a competitive advantage. By having more gil I can buy better gear and therefore use that better gear to get better dungeon content and get better gear and more levels and more gil - it is a competitive advantage to acquire gil.

[AttacKat]

I have been keeping out of the PLEX discussion because I felt there are enough people going back and forth on it already ... that said ...

Some additional issues that calls for further discussion:

1. Fear of Cash->Gil buying to move char ahead.
This is one issue SE need to address. With EVE online, your "skill" is limited by how many skill points your avatar has learned, and EVE uses real time as their limiting factor for this. No one player will ever learn faster then any other player.

As we can see with real time as your avatar's development speed, in EVE, in advanced levels it can take over 6 months for your avatar to be ready for the next ship. So even with ALL the cash, me buying that ship which requires 6 months of skill training time will not put me much ahead of another player due to this limitation. However, in this game, your skill is limited by your experience pts which we can cap over a busy weekend.

Balanced market:
EVE has a very extensive trading system. So much so, you can play EVE full time and do nothing but and just trade from a market with thousands of orders. I founded my 2nd account with 100m isk and was at 1.7B after one month, which in turn funded my 1st account's equipment purchases from there on. I can buy/sell anything, perform order updates every 5 seconds, and analysis market history with years of history based on my filter. SE's market system is at best a simple listing of the lowest 20 sell orders, and the last 20 solds. Current market system must include a lot more buy/sell/analysis functions in order to provide the tools necessary to create the condition for a balanced market.

Fear of F2P:
As I always tried to explain to new EVE players, it is do-able, but not feasible if you are working. Someone mentioned about doing it via mining. Using my own "friendlist" as the source, the best isk/hr (isk = eve currency) from mining I have heard in EVE was 20m/hr. The best I have done isk/hr playing was 12m/hr. Now, when you consider that the PLEX was around 300m, that will required at least 15-25 hrs of game play. For those non-income earning players, this F2P is still a very do-able option, but for those that do work, paying the $15/mo becomes the much preferred method. ;p

Hope this helps ...

jc

[Abriael]

You know in order to do the work in a dual box you have to work on that mule right? So if you want to PL yourself you have to first level the other character.

No need if you started the game by doing that. It's actually very direct. And there are other ways to advantage yourself with money.

Do you have cable internet? I have just a DLS. You'll have better response times than I do. You're paying to win.

Better PC? You have better framerate. Again, your response times will be better. You're paying to win.

Better monitor with less picture lag? Same as above.

Better keyboard with a better response lag? Guess what?

I could go on with several examples. Real money affects our ability to get by in MMORPGs in several ways. Some are just more evident than others.

No, a p2w system doesnt mean there is no way to catch up. A p2w system only means that by using real money you can obtain a competitive advantage. By having more gil I can buy better gear and therefore use that better gear to get better dungeon content and get better gear and more levels and more gil - it is a competitive advantage to acquire gil.

The same can be achieved by dualboxing. Mind you, a much larger effect can be achieved with dualboxing, since, if they were to implement the TERA system, you can only sell two scrolls every week, while by dualboxing you can get a whole ton of gil. A friend made about 30 million in the last three days to set aside for getting a house in ARR.

Therefore, by your definition, every MMO is pay to win one way or the other. Which is why the definition is used incorrectly.

PS: Actually (just for the sake of discussion) this game has some very limited *actual* pay to win feature even by the strict definition. The Hermes Shoes are one. I paid to reactivate my FFXI account prior to release to get them. They give me the ability to run faster for 30 minutes, an ability that no one that didn't pay could match. THAT is pay to win, even if very limited.

[Shougun]

No need if you started the game by doing that. It's actually very direct. And there are other ways to advantage yourself with money.

Do you have cable internet? I have just a DLS. You'll have better response times than I do. You're paying to win.

Better PC? You have better framerate. Again, your response times will be better. You're paying to win.

Better monitor with less picture lag? Same as above.

Better keyboard with a better response lag? Guess what?

I could go on with several examples. Real money affects our ability to get by in MMORPGs in several ways. Some are just more evident than others.



The same can be achieved by dualboxing. Mind you, a much larger effect can be achieved with dualboxing, since, if they were to implement the TERA system, you can only sell two scrolls every week, while by dualboxing you can get a whole ton of gil. A friend made about 30 million in the last three days to set aside for getting a house in ARR.

Therefore, by your definition, every MMO is pay to win one way or the other. Which is why the definition is used incorrectly.

PS: Actually (just for the sake of discussion) this game has some very limited *actual* pay to win feature even by the strict definition. The Hermes Shoes are one. I paid to reactivate my FFXI account prior to release to get them. They give me the ability to run faster for 30 minutes, an ability that no one that didn't pay could match. THAT is pay to win, even if very limited.

p2w refers to what the company does not what the outside world does. Hurricane hit your house, you didnt pay to live in a hotel and continue playing BOOM GAME IS P2W.. no thats not how it works.

What is designed into the system that allows cash to acquire an advantage in game.

That being said I feel you dont care that this plex system adds benefit to those with money - you just care to fight for the system. Most of your arguments consist of it already exists so lets just do it more.

(You are pushing off that topic).

[Abriael]

p2w refers to what the company does not what the outside world does.

That's a rather artificial distinction.

That being said I feel you dont care that this plex system adds benefit to those with money - you just care to fight for the system.

Yep, you're right. I don't care. The reason why I don't care is because it also advantages those without money (or better, it allows them to help each other), and because it helps the game retain subscriptions, that is a *large* problem for P2P games nowadays, and helps fighting RMT firms (that are another large problem), without affecting anyone's experience of the game negatively (unless one is simply jaelous of those that have more, but that's his problem, not the problem of the game).

I'm glad that Yoshida-san considers it interesting, because it tells me that this game is led by an individual with an open mind, which multiplies the chances of success of ARR. Whether it'll be implemented in the future or not.