SE Please implement a Chonoscroll/PLEX system in FFXIV: ARR

[Shougun]

And in fact in this system you don't NEED To pay at all. People that don't pay can still get exactly the same items, exactly the same statistics as everyone else.

To have a pay to win system you have to NEED to pay in order to win. Ergo, it only applies where people that pay have access to statistical bonuses and items that othr players can't access.

Those who dont pay are actually making things worse. They are supporting p2w by farming and then selling their farm to someone who used real money. Basically you become an RMT shop and non paying players become your Chinese workshop farmers.

And you really are ignoring or dont get the pay to win meaning. If you can pay to play better, it is a pay to win system. If you can use real money to get ahead, it is a pay to win system. This idea IS a pay to win system.

False.

You don't devalue the currency at all. The amount of currency on the market remains exactly the same. While some people's buying power will increase, some other's will decrease, the end result is the same.

It's funny how people continue to sustain the theory that it will devalue the currency when it flies in the face of both economical theory and both of the real examples we already have.

You increase reasons to farm - increases currency, devalues currency, inflation on prices.
True.

Also in your own words you have labeled this system pay to win. "While some people's buying power will increase, some other's will decrease". This is not acceptable.

[Abriael]

Those who dont pay are actually making things worse. They are supporting p2w by farming and then selling their farm to someone who used real money. Basically you become an RMT shop and non paying players become your Chinese workshop farmers.

You assume that those people need to farm as much gil as humanly possible, like the gil farmers do. In reality that's completely false, as all they need to farm is what they need to get their monthly item. The influence on the market is negligible, and comparing them to "chinese workshop farmers" is an extremization that voids your argument of any validity.

And you really are ignoring or dont get the pay to win meaning. If you can pay to play better, it is a pay to win system. If you can use real money to get ahead, it is a pay to win system. This idea IS a pay to win system.

Actually, having been a game writer for 15 years and having discussed this kind of topic a ton of times with developers, industry professionals and other writers alike, yeah, I have a very clear idea of what "pay to win" means.

According to your overly simplistic definition *every* MMORPG can be defined pay to win one way or another. Including FFXIV 1.0. Of course, that's not the case.

My definition is the definition widely accepted by the industry, and as such the only one that counts, unless you're in the business of calling things with the wrong name for shock value.

It is amusing, though, to see how many people still apply the concept inappropriately to games in which paying doesn't give any sizable advantage over those that don't pay.

Also in your own words you have labeled this system pay to win. "While some people's buying power will increase, some other's will decrease". This is not acceptable.

You misinterpreted it (probably intentionally).

People whose buying power increases - Those that sell PLEX/Chronoscrolls, because they have more gold.
People whose buying power decreases - Those that buy PLEX/Chronoscrolls, because they have less gold.
Everyone else is unaffected, because, inflation-wise the other two categories cancel each other out.

Again. You're making up theories that conflict with economical theory, and that have already been proven wrong by reality in two distinct games.

[Shougun]

You assume that those people need to farm as much gil as humanly possible, like the gil farmers do. In reality that's completely false, as all they need to farm is what they need to get their monthly item. The influence on the market is negligible, and comparing them to "chinese workshop farmers" is an extremization that voids your argument of any validity.



Actually, having been a game writer for 15 years and having discussed this kind of topic a ton of times with developers, industry professionals and other writers alike, yeah, I have a very clear idea of what "pay to win" means.

According to your overly simplistic definition *every* MMORPG can be defined pay to win one way or another. Including FFXIV 1.0. Of course, that's not the case.

My definition is the definition widely accepted by the industry, and as such the only one that counts, unless you're in the business of calling things with the wrong name for shock value.

It is amusing, though, to see how many people still apply the concept inappropriately to games in which paying doesn't give any sizable advantage over those that don't pay.



You misinterpreted it (probably intentionally).

People whose buying power increases - Those that sell PLEX/Chronoscrolls, because they have more gold.
People whose buying power decreases - Those that buy PLEX/Chronoscrolls, because they have less gold.
Everyone else is unaffected, because, inflation-wise the other two categories cancel each other out.

Again. You're making up theories that conflict with economical theory, and that have already been proven wrong by reality in two distinct games.

I've been Jesus since the begining, de facto my word is law. -_-

I don't care about your background - it means nothing to your actual logic only to the probability of such.

And your definition of pay to win is not the industry standard. The definition entails the ability to take competitive advantage by using real money.

As you are attempting to do to me, I can do the same.

You misunderstand everything, you dont know economy, its proven fact you are wrong.

There we are at crossroads.

I will always be against a system that involves ANY method of taking competitive advantage through use of real money - regardless of how you want to "define" it.

[Abriael]

I will always be against a system that involves ANY method of taking competitive advantage through use of real money - regardless of how you want to "define" it.

Then you may want to stop playing MMORPGs, because by your definition *every single MMORPG* is pay to win.

You can try tit for tat as much as you want, but the fact that there are two MMORPGs out there in which the idea has been applied with ample success without causing inflation, while in *no* instance, the idea has been applied unsuccessfully says you're wrong.

Oh the inflation would only happen because people would have a new reason to farm. Not because of switching of hands. That is to say as long as the amount of months sold is exactly the amount of game time being used, unlike the possibility of collecting 6 years of game time within a few months and selling it.

That "new reason to farm" is very limited, as anyone that wants to pay with his fee with gil only needs to farm what's necessary to do so a month.

As such, it's manageable, and far outweighted by the reduction of the inflation caused by RMT firms.

No you are missing the point ( I think ) - the person who used real money got your 10 gil (smaller number, easier to work with ). BUT that person can also earn the 10 gil like you did normally. So in effect they have 20 gil.

That's an assumption, because the person that earned gil normally can again farm more, and get more gil than the other. It involves no "pay to win" because even if I pay, I can't get nothing that another can't get with time or skill alone.

[Shougun]

Then you may want to stop playing MMORPG, because by your definition *every single MMORPG* is pay to win.

You can try tit for tat as much as you want, but the fact that there are two MMORPGs out there in which the idea has been applied with ample success without causing inflation, while in *no* instance, the idea has been applied unsuccessfully says you're wrong.

Hardly such. Everyone is paying for the right to log in with cash only. Everyone playing now has the same opportunities - ignoring illegal activities like buying from RMT.

Cross currency systems like PLEX create a p2w system. How nominal is hard to forecast - but the fact is the system has been created.

That's an assumption, because the person that earned gil normally can again farm more, and get more gil than the other. It involves no "pay to win" because even if I pay, I can't get nothing that another can't get with time or skill alone

You said it yourself here:

anyone that wants to pay with his fee with gil only needs to farm what's necessary to do so a month.

So a person who uses real money will make the amount it takes to pay for the pass every month.

Yes you can "work hard" to catch up - but if you have two exact people with one difference (one willing and one not) the person willing WILL be ahead. Not an assumption.

In the p2p system if you have two same people, they will be growing at the same rate. I prefer this system.

[Abriael]

Hardly such. Everyone is paying for the right to log in with cash only. Everyone playing now has the same opportunities - ignoring illegal activities like buying from RMT.

Eh, unfortunately not so. Example:

I have more money than you. Buy two computers. Got a collector's edition (that included two accounts). Pay the monthly fee for two accounts.
You have less money than me. Only one computer. Standard edition. Pay the monthly for only one account.

I can multibox, levelinking my two characters (which multiplies earnings by two) with one on tow. Use them for spiritbond, and when i'm out having fun i keep one crafting all the time making millions of gil (I know several people that do this, it' VERY easy with the new crafting, as it takes only a click every two seconds).

I have a very sizable advantage over you by spending more money on the game. By your definition, this is pay to win. Ergo FFXIV (and every MMO in which multiboxing is possible) is pay to win.

Yes you can "work hard" to catch up - but if you have two exact people with one difference (one willing and one not) the person willing WILL be ahead. Not an assumption.

A person with more money ALWAYS has ways to get ahead in every MMORPG. What distinguishes pay to win is when the other person has no way to catch up. For instance when the developer sells boosters that increase the attack power of the one that uses them.

That's what distinguishes an advantage from an unfair advantage.

[Shougun]

Eh, unfortunately not so.

I have more money than you. Buy two computers. Got a collector's edition (that included two accounts). Pay the monthly fee for two accounts.
You have less money than me. Only one computer. Standard edition. Pay the monthly for only one account.

I can multibox, levelinking my two characters (which multiplies earnings by two) with one on tow. Use them for spiritbond, and when i'm out having fun i keep one crafting all the time making millions of gil (I know several people that do this, it' VERY easy with the new crafting, as it takes only a click every two seconds).

I have a very sizable advantage over you by spending more money on the game. By your definition, this is pay to win. Ergo FFXIV (and every MMO in which multiboxing is possible) is pay to win.

You know in order to do the work in a dual box you have to work on that mule right? So if you want to PL yourself you have to first level the other character.

That being said I think this is the best thing I've read so far. It isnt a direct p2w, but it does seem to be an indirect system.

Perhaps I should argue against direct p2w systems need to gtfo. I'll think about that dual box in application of indirect p2w.

A person with more money ALWAYS has ways to get ahead in every MMORPG. What distinguishes pay to win is when the other person has no way to catch up. For instance when the developer sells boosters that increase the attack power of the one that uses them.

That's what distinguishes an advantage from an unfair advantage.

No, a p2w system doesnt mean there is no way to catch up. A p2w system only means that by using real money you can obtain a competitive advantage. By having more gil I can buy better gear and therefore use that better gear to get better dungeon content and get better gear and more levels and more gil - it is a competitive advantage to acquire gil.

[axemtitanium]

Also in your own words you have labeled this system pay to win. "While some people's buying power will increase, some other's will decrease". This is not acceptable.

I think he misspoke. No one's buying power will change at all because no new currency will be introduced to circulation. The consumer price index (definition) will stay the same. When one person uses real money to purchase a PLEX and then sells it on the market wards, he is gaining money from another person who used to own that money. When he spends it on other items on the markets, he disseminates this money to the people who were selling those items. No money is created during this process, hence, no inflation or devaluing of currency. Besides, anything that can be purchased from the wards will be second-rate anyway since Yoshi-P has already stated that the best-in-slot gear will all be U/U drops from dungeons/bosses/whatever. At absolute worst, you'll find some PLEX buyers running around in double-meld gear while the real endgame players have full sets of Darklight or whatever is the best equipment in 2.0. If by pay-to-win, you mean pay-to-have-second-rate-equipment, then sure, call it that.

[Shougun]

I think he misspoke. No one's buying power will change at all because no new currency will be introduced to circulation. The consumer price index (definition) will stay the same. When one person uses real money to purchase a PLEX and then sells it on the market wards, he is gaining money from another person who used to own that money. When he spends it on other items on the markets, he disseminates this money to the people who were selling those items. No money is created during this process, hence, no inflation or devaluing of currency. Besides, anything that can be purchased from the wards will be second-rate anyway since Yoshi-P has already stated that the best-in-slot gear will all be U/U drops from dungeons/bosses/whatever. At absolute worst, you'll find some PLEX buyers running around in double-meld gear while the real endgame players have full sets of Darklight or whatever is the best equipment in 2.0.

There is a shift in gil. The ability to bring in real money to shift gil changes your buying power.

100000000000 gil is worth more then 1 gil.

If I can use 10$ to get 100000 gil, I have more buying power then someone who will not use 10$.

[Abriael]

There is a shift in gil. The ability to bring in real money to shift gil changes your buying power.

And since the one that gave you the gil had his buying power reduced at the same time, the two instances cancel each other. No inflation is generated.

If I can use 10$ to get 100000 gil, I have more buying power then someone who will not use 10$.

Not necessarily, because that someone can simply get 100000 gil normally.