CG Midlander

[NoloeTazier]

Sorry for going off in a tangent here, I'm curious if Ferne or any other developers might like to share some insight on the absence of the West Shroud so far in the media. We've seen all areas minus the West Shroud in the Alpha preview video collections and it has me wondering.

Looking back at the very first FFXIV 2.0 concept art .pdf there's a piece of art for an area in the shroud that I consider to be West Shroud. Doing a bit of thinking and screen shot research we can see that the Eorzean Stratum (that large crystal object) to the west of the new Camp Tranquil as seen in the alpha preview video.



Surely there must be a West Shroud, right?

West Shroud connects to Mor Dhona and I also think it's the higher level area of The Twelveswood, not sure. Best way to hide pretty picturesque Mor Dhona is not allowing people to get to "close." Be interesting to see if we can view the Crystal Tower in the distance. Could also be that West Shroud was hit hardest by Megaflare/Dalamud debris and it has some major changes. Maybe Gelmorra has been uncovered, those ruins were in North West of the West Shroud after all.

[AkiRouscelia]

... Maybe Gelmorra has been uncovered, those ruins were in North West of the West Shroud after all.

I was thinking the same. Especially considering the ruins tag in the original 2.0 .pdf file for the Shroud map. That's pretty much why I consider it the western side, anyway.

I agree that it's a good way to keep the surprises that lay in Mor'Dhona under wraps.

[Anonymoose]

For those of you still following from the earlier game-wide lore digression this thread has become famous for as SE makes final decisions about a lore forum...

Here's a question:
Do you think we're sometimes moving to different ships when someone on a ship triggers an echo?

We see in some cases that the Echo can make you travel great distances (see: ALC story arc, V1 opening cinematic). Do you think this is happening in the Lominsan story arc? It's the only thing I can think of to make some of the continuity work. For instance, in Treasures of the Main, we see Sthalmann referring to a ship he impounded due to suspicions of being a sea serpent-attracting pirate vessel, rather than a "civilian ship."

I originally thought that he was talking about Hob's ship, seeing as he was there on the previous quest, but he's not. He refers to the captain as "one-eyed," and the only one-eyed captain 'round here is One-Eyed Hyllfyr of the Astalicia. This makes sense, as The Astalicia is actually registered with the Lominsan government as being a trade ship from another land. The fact that it's a pirate vessel is a (badly kept) secret.

So, that begs the question, when Rusty Steel (Rostnsthal) is travelling around on Hob's cargo ship and triggers an echo... what would he, then Man of Steel (Sthalmann), have been doing aboard Hob's ship in civilian gear when the sea serpent appeared? Let's go through some (what I think are) facts (correct me if I make a mistake):

• Seal Rock truly is Swallowtail Roam.

Stated by SE press releases, and, c'mon; sea serpent.

• Swallowtail Roam appeared shortly (3 months) before Y'shtola arrives.

In 1562 (sixth astral), Sthalmann commissions a vessel from Naldiq & Vymelli's to join the scholars on a trip to Seal Rock. The steelmaster of the forge questions him about where the island came from, and he says that he's been trying to figure that out for "a few months," but local matters keep him tied to Limsa.

• Sthalmann is Commodore when Y'shtola arrives.

• Y'shtola is only in town for two weeks in 1562(ish), when the rest of the Circle arrive in Eorzea.

Merodaulyn mentions that she's been in town for a fortnight - so 14-16 days. Now that you mention it, what IS an Eorzean fortnight? The word is short for "fourteen nights," but is often used to mean "two weeks." That's all well and fine in the real world - but Eorzea's weeks have eight days. Is a fortnight still two weeks? Or two days shorter? Might there be a fifnight? Twelfnight? We know there's a sennight, which is short for seven d- OH, MAN, IS A SENNIGHT A WEEK OR ... <head explodes>

So, where is Sthalmann and why?

The story has shown that you can travel to far-away places through the echo, so long as the person who is triggering it is reminded of the past event by the present situation, so I see some possibilities. However, all the ones I can think of require this particular echo to take place three months before many of the others - which doesn't fit with Y'shtola's timeline.

I'm forced to assume that she, herself, is time-jumping around (like she seems to in the Grand Comapny story arc), but spends most of, but not all of, her time in that two week period.

The best can gather is that...

When Swallowtail Roam first appears ten years and three months ago, Sthalmann is a civilian. My best guess is that he's a low-level pirate; three months after this, as Commodore, he knows that the Astalicia is a pirate vessel, and it's a little early for such a thing to be so widely known. He may even be from the Astalicia herself, considering that she and Hob's ship are of the same model, and ten years later it is on Hob's ship that Rostnsthal triggers this echo.

When he first sees the serpent, he becomes obsessed with Swallowtail Roam and its rumored treasure - resolving that he will take it for himself and finally have the respect he thinks he deserves. He suppresses all talk of the serpent as nonsense and convinces his captain to enter the Trident. Through some means, legitimate or otherwise, Sthalmann's captain wins and becomes admiral - making Sthalmann commodore for his assistance, legitimate or otherwise, in taking the chair.

He spends the next three months elaborately plotting to finally take the chair for himself. However, by this time, Seal Rock is impossible to hide. Immediately, forces from every angle descend upon it - pirates who want riches, scholars who want knowledge, Barracudas to secure their waters... and four particular factions who know of and want one particular army-summoning treasure:

• The Sahagin (likely to wipe out Leviathan's enemies)
• The Ascians (likely to wipe out everything)
• Sthalmann (to take the admiralty and rule the seas/Eorzea/Hydaelyn)
• The Circle of Knowing (probably just to not get murderized by the aforementioned)

Sthalmann knows that time is against him, so he creates a clandestine triad to take the treasure before anyone can be the wiser. However, the Ascians are smarter: they plant a man in the Serpent Reavers. He is an ascian, who looks like a Lominsan, who is in with the Sahagin - and Sthalmann is blocking Y'shtola, so he knows every detail and activity of all factions who want the treasure.

This is the where the Lominsan story arc comes in, Sthalmann's plan falls apart, Y'shtola loses the key, and Travanchet gets away.

IT ALL WORKS! ... but,

I'm bothered to a very great degree by the fact that, in order to make this work, I end up having to assume that Sthalmann went from deckhand to Commodore in three months. sTILL, when you take the Trident into consideration, you can go from pirate to Admiral in a day... (Lookin' at you, Merlwyb!)

Can any of you come up with something that puts Sthalmann in civvy gear on any ship for any reason ten years (not ten years and three months) ago, while Commodore, for any canon-consistent reason?

Or, even better, does someone out there (including you wonderful SE employees) just know what happened?

[Catapult]

Cor, that's a lot to wrap my head around. And I never properly played the lominsan story arc. But I'll try throwing spanners and logic around anyway...

Here's a question:Do you think we're sometimes moving to different ships when someone on a ship triggers an echo?

Yes. We do it all the time. To quote Papalymo, "How the bloody hells did we get here?!?"
But because most lominsan ships are based of a standard (presumably) Naldiq & Vymelli model, the player couldn't be expected to properly identify the differences between various ships.

So, that begs the question, when Rusty Steel (Rostnsthal) is travelling around on Hob's cargo ship and triggers an echo... what would he, then Man of Steel (Sthalmann), have been doing aboard Hob's ship in civilian gear when the sea serpent appeared?

In transit, off-duty?
Doing some reconnaissance without wanting to attract too much attention?
On his way back from setting things up with Emerick?

A good officer knows when to put on a disguise and how to dress for the occasion.

^Both of these are of the same character: Belleza, 4th Admiral of the Valuan Armada, specialist in espionage, particularly when it involves getting information out of pirates.

Ok, so my fandom for Skies of Arcadia is filtering through here, but you get the idea...

Let's go through some (what I think are) facts (correct me if I make a mistake):

• Seal Rock truly is Swallowtail Roam.
• Swallowtail Roam appeared shortly (3 months) before Y'shtola arrives.
• Sthalmann is Commodore when Y'shtola arrives.
• Y'shtola is only in town for two weeks in 1562(ish), when the rest of the Circle arrive in Eorzea.

All correct, to the best of my knowledge.

Now that you mention it, what IS an Eorzean fortnight?

Don't hurt yourself buddy. Oh, wait, too late...

I'm forced to assume that [Y'shtola], herself, is time-jumping around (like she seems to in the Grand Comapny story arc), but spends most of, but not all of, her time in that two week period.

That would be quite a big call to make. Anecdotal evidence suggests that while the circle of knowing is aware of what the echo is, they have no personal familiarity with it before 1562.

The echo has sounded, and nothing can stop it now.

Given the way all four members show up at the same time, your theory supposes that Y'shtola's mission in Limsa was different to that of Thancred's in Ul'dah and Papalymo's in Gridania, who sought to find out with what means the city-state would defend itself against the Garleans and get in its way if said means would cause more harm than good. Indeed, Y'shtola's presence can be easily justified with this mission, but your theory suggests she is history-hopping after the fact and the Sharlayan council decided not to worry about Limsa in the way it worried about the other city-states.

I'm kinda not buying it. She's a prowling cat who could have easily got a whiff of something not being quite right around Merodaulyn and decided to stow away during the expedition.

Um, yeah, I always figured that second appearance of Leviathan with the tidal wave following the ship fight was the seal rock expedition. Please correct me if I'm wrong there.

I'm bothered to a very great degree by the fact that, in order to make this work, I end up having to assume that Sthalmann went from deckhand to Commodore in three months. STILL, when you take the Trident into consideration, you can go from pirate to Admiral in a day... (Lookin' at you, Merlwyb!)

I'm looking at Merlwyb as well. She's held the chair for ten years now, it seems. Which leads me to a new question:
How often is the Trident held?
Is it a yearly thing? Or does it only ever happen when the previous Admiral falls off the chair (natural or assisted causes)? I'm gonna hazard a guess with the latter, and that makes me buy the "ascension to commodore" theory even less. Nah, that guy has been plotting for a long time. He also has the air of confidence and the respect of his underlings that you have to build up over years, not just three months.

At the very least, he was first mate to his captain, not a deckhand.

[Laevetine]

Hello all, late to the game i know. Please forgive me for getting a little lengthy.

I have always worked under the assumption that Sthalmann was on Hobs ship in "Civvies" as he was searching for what i would say are accomplices. Since i would say it agreeable that he has been working on taking over admiral for quite some time. I feel that its safe to say for whatever reason Sthalmann is commodore at the very beginning.

As far as the Trident goes i have always seen it as like what the Gotei 13 did in olden days Bleach. It was used when it was needed. For example if someone dies or their is a consensual challenge.

I do agree with a lot of stuff in this thread (though it is getting quite a bit along now). I Personally believe that at least Y'shtola has the power of the echo as well or something close to it. I have my suspicions of Thancred and i do not believe Yda and Papalymo have it.

On a related wild tangent, I think a lot of problems with continuity is us. I'm a firm believer that we are the proverbial thorn in the side on most everything we see.

Bear with me if you will that Limsa's and Ul'dah's plots could have easily played out way different had we not been there. I think that because we threw our "spanner" into the mix we caused issues. Since we are supposed to be viewing the past of someone else (how they remembered it) since we are there now, things are not quite right.

We are explained various powers of the echo through the storyline, but that really does not encompass what we see. The way i have it figured is that after the big aether explosion 10 years ago people started cropping up with echo powers. Certain people sensitive to these types of things gained various abilities. Seen as how some people can see the past and some can understand languages such as mooglespeak. Though we are very different as our powers are a direct gift from the mother crystal.

The example that alludes me to this.

In the Gridania story when dealing with the Pad'jal they speak to us outside the echo of things we need to do in the past mainly pertaining to dunstan and Fye. At the time we do not know we are going to the past so it nothing to us. Now if what Minfillia says is true and we can not change the past then why are these kids telling us to do so? I think that is what makes us so important is that we can affect the past and thats why stuff is hard to understand. It's Because we are fumbling like idiots trough the past cause we do not know any better.

Another thing that i think of is that we can not use the echo directly on the Pad'jal they know and block us. (Not sure where this was said but i remember it in the game somehwere.) So someone had to be leading us around to do stuff and the pad'jal had to be doing it knowingly since we can not do it ourselves to them.

Take it for what you will, though this is kinda my thoughts on it. The whole thing makes me think that the guy who made twin peaks is writing an episode of quantum leap...

Sorry for commenting and kinda derailing love what you guys have been doing here. Also cannot wait for official lore area on the new site so we can see what really happened.

[Anonymoose]

...the player couldn't be expected to properly identify the differences between various ships.

Maybe I'm just not trying hard enough...

Even among the Lominsan standard, there are a few giveaways. All three ships in the second serpent appearance use diagonal red sails and fly 'Cuda flags, as does the one Commodore Sthalmann is commissioning in Treasures of the Main.

However, Hob's ship clearly has a few differences. There are no cannons, the sails are white, he flies no flag. These qualities seem to be a little rarer in Limsa. However, Sthalmann's ship in Shapeless Melody is quite similar, though the sails are tied to prevent damage.

That means ... unless there are any other ships in Limsa that meet these qualities...

Like, the Astalicia...

HUH. Well, shit.

Back to where I started with my theory above then - one or the other.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that while the circle of knowing is aware of what the echo is, they have no personal familiarity with it before 1562.
Given the way all four members show up at the same time, your theory supposes that Y'shtola's mission in Limsa was different to that of Thancred's in Ul'dah and Papalymo's in Gridania, who sought to find out with what means the city-state would defend itself against the Garleans and get in its way if said means would cause more harm than good. Indeed, Y'shtola's presence can be easily justified with this mission, but your theory suggests she is history-hopping after the fact and the Sharlayan council decided not to worry about Limsa in the way it worried about the other city-states.

To some degree, her mission in Lominsa is quite different than just figuring out how they'd fare against the Empire. In the entire time she's in town, the only question she makes as to the Garleans or Lominsa's ability to defend against them is, "What of the Empire? ... Surely they would not attack an independent city-state this far south." and that's it. She spends the rest of the time inquiring about "shadowless associates," Ascians, and the Key (Treasures of Swallowtail Roam). She doesn't even realize until halfway through that it could be used to summon an army.

Um, yeah, I always figured that second appearance of Leviathan with the tidal wave following the ship fight was the seal rock expedition. Please correct me if I'm wrong there.

For starters, Ferne's confirmed that the sea serpent is not by any means Leviathan, but, like Midgardsormr, an independent great beast with a mythology rooted in The Twelve. This makes sense, I guess, because he doesn't bother stopping to demand aether, bask in the worship of his cult, and give a lenthy diatribe about how unworthy and insignificant everyone else is.

By this point in the story, I'm pretty sure that the Seal Rock expedition's destruction is well over with. After Emerick sold out the Seal Rock unit, he was arrested by Sthalmann and sequestered at sea (where they hide criminals they think will be assassinated in Coral Tower). This was probably just to keep him safe until he could be spirited away by Sthalmann again, seeing as how he fully expects to be let out and stages a fight with Merodaulyn to make it look good.

How does the player end up in this? In an echo, he hears that Emerick was sequestered at sea and demands to be brought to the sequestered ship, despite people at the Wench telling you he's dead. Baderon calls in a favor from Hob, who for some reason borrows a ship from the Fisherman's Guild to bring you out there. On the ship, Hob spies some Serpent Reavers, which for some reason triggers an Echo where Travanchet attacks the sequestered ship looking for Emerick and the serpent shows up to trash everything. Why exactly Hob would have anything to do with this is something I'm still working on. However, Y'shtola shows up to warn Emerick that the Ascians are after him, and Merod says that if she's here the 'Cudas can't be far behind. They're not - two more ships show up to take on Travanchet's boats, but everyone loses. The boats are trashed, Merod disappears, Emerick seems to get injured pretty badly and eventually become Blackburn and Y'shtola... arrives back in town like nothing happened (again, making me think maybe she's able to time-jump somehow. Hey, Lou did it.)

How often is the Trident held?

This one gets under my skin a bit. Sthalmann's plot killed the admiral of ten years ago - and now we have Merlwyb. BUT - despite the fact that NPCs refer to her as "the new admiral," more NPCs and quests make it clear that a new Trident is fast approaching. It's the crux of the MRD storyline - the Trident is coming and the crews are trying to get the upper hand on one another.

These aren't just pre-GC leftovers, either. One NPC in town states:

"Pirates in an uproar over the new Admiral? Hah! If they don't like her, then all they have to do is beat her in the next Trident. If they can't do that, then they should crawl back into their holes and keep quiet until they grow the stones to stand up to her!"

So, it's on a schedule of some kind. I'm not sure what that schedule is. There's also the possibility that there was an admiral BETWEEN the one who died in 1562 and Merlwyb. This would make sense, since she'd be the winner of the most recent Trident ("the new admiral") but the next Trident approaches.

In transit, off-duty? Doing some reconnaissance without wanting to attract too much attention? On his way back from setting things up with Emerick? A good officer knows when to put on a disguise and how to dress for the occasion.

Nah, that guy has been plotting for a long time. He also has the air of confidence and the respect of his underlings that you have to build up over years, not just three months. At the very least, he was first mate to his captain, not a deckhand.

This I agree with. Like I said, it bothers me that the only way I can think of to cram it together relies on making assumptions like this - there has to be something I'm missing, and it's possible that, like the "seal" under Silvertear, we just won't be aware of it until the game or devs say so.

The way he calls out orders aboard the ship he's on in Shapless Melody does make him out to be an important figure on the ship. However, this creates a circular problem in your logic as much as it does mine. If he's commodore but undercover, then he should command so much authority on the ship -- unless people know he's commodore, and then why is he in civvy gear with no title?

It might be a combination - at that time he's a first mate aboard a pirate ship (as we've seen, maybe even the Astalicia)

[Icecylee]

Another thing that i think of is that we can not use the echo directly on the Pad'jal they know and block us. (Not sure where this was said but i remember it in the game somehwere.) So someone had to be leading us around to do stuff and the pad'jal had to be doing it knowingly since we can not do it ourselves to them.

That's not entirely correct - as there's at least one side quest where you use the Echo on Raya-O to see a conversation between her and her sister. She *does* notice what you're doing by the end of it though, and she gets pissed off while somehow throwing you out of the echo before berating you for using it on her and then teleporting off.

[Catapult]

That's not entirely correct - as there's at least one side quest where you use the Echo on Raya-O to see a conversation between her and her sister. She *does* notice what you're doing by the end of it though, and she gets pissed off while somehow throwing you out of the echo before berating you for using it on her and then teleporting off.

You beat me to it.

That being said, there is a distinct possibility that E-Sumi-Yan is on to you when you meet at the Greatloam Growery and he sends you to find Pearl Clover fruits. He knows the true history of Fye and Dunstan unlike the rest of town who are playing off gossip. And so, rather than showing his hand, he could choose to wait and see where this unravels. The next time you see him in the present day is at the small harvest, where he is in deep conversation with the Hermit of the Wood, who is also on to you.


And Moose, thanks for pulling me up on the "leviathan" statement. I clearly had my lore in a knot.

[Laevetine]

That's not entirely correct - as there's at least one side quest where you use the Echo on Raya-O to see a conversation between her and her sister. She *does* notice what you're doing by the end of it though, and she gets pissed off while somehow throwing you out of the echo before berating you for using it on her and then teleporting off.

Ahh i stand corrected, i never got to finish all of Gridania stuff so i had to take a lil liberty.

Though i still say that O-App and E-Sumi lead you along in the present knowingly.

And if nothing else we have a whole lot of plot coming up in the future.

[Anonymoose]

And Moose, thanks for pulling me up on the "leviathan" statement. I clearly had my lore in a knot.

Whatever work needs to be done to get people up to the same page I'm stuck on so we can start translating it together, that's work well spent! :P