CG Midlander

[Catapult]

That's not entirely correct - as there's at least one side quest where you use the Echo on Raya-O to see a conversation between her and her sister. She *does* notice what you're doing by the end of it though, and she gets pissed off while somehow throwing you out of the echo before berating you for using it on her and then teleporting off.

You beat me to it.

That being said, there is a distinct possibility that E-Sumi-Yan is on to you when you meet at the Greatloam Growery and he sends you to find Pearl Clover fruits. He knows the true history of Fye and Dunstan unlike the rest of town who are playing off gossip. And so, rather than showing his hand, he could choose to wait and see where this unravels. The next time you see him in the present day is at the small harvest, where he is in deep conversation with the Hermit of the Wood, who is also on to you.


And Moose, thanks for pulling me up on the "leviathan" statement. I clearly had my lore in a knot.

[Anonymoose]

And Moose, thanks for pulling me up on the "leviathan" statement. I clearly had my lore in a knot.

Whatever work needs to be done to get people up to the same page I'm stuck on so we can start translating it together, that's work well spent! :P

[Laevetine]

That's not entirely correct - as there's at least one side quest where you use the Echo on Raya-O to see a conversation between her and her sister. She *does* notice what you're doing by the end of it though, and she gets pissed off while somehow throwing you out of the echo before berating you for using it on her and then teleporting off.

Ahh i stand corrected, i never got to finish all of Gridania stuff so i had to take a lil liberty.

Though i still say that O-App and E-Sumi lead you along in the present knowingly.

And if nothing else we have a whole lot of plot coming up in the future.

[Catapult]

Ahh i stand corrected, i never got to finish all of Gridania stuff so i had to take a lil liberty.

Though i still say that O-App and E-Sumi lead you along in the present knowingly.

And if nothing else we have a whole lot of plot coming up in the future.

It would be easier to say that the padjal begin to lead you along in order to make best use of your naïvity as the story progresses, even if they don't properly understand what it is you can do. As you spend more time in the past, you gradually go from being a nobody to someone who is a bit of a historical contradiction that O-App is then capable of picking up on.

"Sonething tells me you will not meet with much trouble finding [Fye]"

This of course assumes that the echo allows us to make small changes to history, predominantly to what people remember.

[Anonymoose]

...the player couldn't be expected to properly identify the differences between various ships.

Maybe I'm just not trying hard enough...

Even among the Lominsan standard, there are a few giveaways. All three ships in the second serpent appearance use diagonal red sails and fly 'Cuda flags, as does the one Commodore Sthalmann is commissioning in Treasures of the Main.

However, Hob's ship clearly has a few differences. There are no cannons, the sails are white, he flies no flag. These qualities seem to be a little rarer in Limsa. However, Sthalmann's ship in Shapeless Melody is quite similar, though the sails are tied to prevent damage.

That means ... unless there are any other ships in Limsa that meet these qualities...

Like, the Astalicia...

HUH. Well, shit.

Back to where I started with my theory above then - one or the other.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that while the circle of knowing is aware of what the echo is, they have no personal familiarity with it before 1562.
Given the way all four members show up at the same time, your theory supposes that Y'shtola's mission in Limsa was different to that of Thancred's in Ul'dah and Papalymo's in Gridania, who sought to find out with what means the city-state would defend itself against the Garleans and get in its way if said means would cause more harm than good. Indeed, Y'shtola's presence can be easily justified with this mission, but your theory suggests she is history-hopping after the fact and the Sharlayan council decided not to worry about Limsa in the way it worried about the other city-states.

To some degree, her mission in Lominsa is quite different than just figuring out how they'd fare against the Empire. In the entire time she's in town, the only question she makes as to the Garleans or Lominsa's ability to defend against them is, "What of the Empire? ... Surely they would not attack an independent city-state this far south." and that's it. She spends the rest of the time inquiring about "shadowless associates," Ascians, and the Key (Treasures of Swallowtail Roam). She doesn't even realize until halfway through that it could be used to summon an army.

Um, yeah, I always figured that second appearance of Leviathan with the tidal wave following the ship fight was the seal rock expedition. Please correct me if I'm wrong there.

For starters, Ferne's confirmed that the sea serpent is not by any means Leviathan, but, like Midgardsormr, an independent great beast with a mythology rooted in The Twelve. This makes sense, I guess, because he doesn't bother stopping to demand aether, bask in the worship of his cult, and give a lenthy diatribe about how unworthy and insignificant everyone else is.

By this point in the story, I'm pretty sure that the Seal Rock expedition's destruction is well over with. After Emerick sold out the Seal Rock unit, he was arrested by Sthalmann and sequestered at sea (where they hide criminals they think will be assassinated in Coral Tower). This was probably just to keep him safe until he could be spirited away by Sthalmann again, seeing as how he fully expects to be let out and stages a fight with Merodaulyn to make it look good.

How does the player end up in this? In an echo, he hears that Emerick was sequestered at sea and demands to be brought to the sequestered ship, despite people at the Wench telling you he's dead. Baderon calls in a favor from Hob, who for some reason borrows a ship from the Fisherman's Guild to bring you out there. On the ship, Hob spies some Serpent Reavers, which for some reason triggers an Echo where Travanchet attacks the sequestered ship looking for Emerick and the serpent shows up to trash everything. Why exactly Hob would have anything to do with this is something I'm still working on. However, Y'shtola shows up to warn Emerick that the Ascians are after him, and Merod says that if she's here the 'Cudas can't be far behind. They're not - two more ships show up to take on Travanchet's boats, but everyone loses. The boats are trashed, Merod disappears, Emerick seems to get injured pretty badly and eventually become Blackburn and Y'shtola... arrives back in town like nothing happened (again, making me think maybe she's able to time-jump somehow. Hey, Lou did it.)

How often is the Trident held?

This one gets under my skin a bit. Sthalmann's plot killed the admiral of ten years ago - and now we have Merlwyb. BUT - despite the fact that NPCs refer to her as "the new admiral," more NPCs and quests make it clear that a new Trident is fast approaching. It's the crux of the MRD storyline - the Trident is coming and the crews are trying to get the upper hand on one another.

These aren't just pre-GC leftovers, either. One NPC in town states:

"Pirates in an uproar over the new Admiral? Hah! If they don't like her, then all they have to do is beat her in the next Trident. If they can't do that, then they should crawl back into their holes and keep quiet until they grow the stones to stand up to her!"

So, it's on a schedule of some kind. I'm not sure what that schedule is. There's also the possibility that there was an admiral BETWEEN the one who died in 1562 and Merlwyb. This would make sense, since she'd be the winner of the most recent Trident ("the new admiral") but the next Trident approaches.

In transit, off-duty? Doing some reconnaissance without wanting to attract too much attention? On his way back from setting things up with Emerick? A good officer knows when to put on a disguise and how to dress for the occasion.

Nah, that guy has been plotting for a long time. He also has the air of confidence and the respect of his underlings that you have to build up over years, not just three months. At the very least, he was first mate to his captain, not a deckhand.

This I agree with. Like I said, it bothers me that the only way I can think of to cram it together relies on making assumptions like this - there has to be something I'm missing, and it's possible that, like the "seal" under Silvertear, we just won't be aware of it until the game or devs say so.

The way he calls out orders aboard the ship he's on in Shapless Melody does make him out to be an important figure on the ship. However, this creates a circular problem in your logic as much as it does mine. If he's commodore but undercover, then he should command so much authority on the ship -- unless people know he's commodore, and then why is he in civvy gear with no title?

It might be a combination - at that time he's a first mate aboard a pirate ship (as we've seen, maybe even the Astalicia)

[Enkidoh]

Having read through this excellent thread I noticed there's however a contradiction to this lore that I'd really like to clarify (I'm really sorry to Ferne, as he's done an awesome job trying to sort out all the lore for us) - and that's the constant reference to the Echo being 'time travel' - it's not, at least, not in the literal sense.

In reality, to me it's more of a form of clairvoyance/telepathy, reading a person's memories and actually 'placing yourself' in them in a kind of dream state - Minfilia mentions this and explains how the Echo works when you first arrive at the Path of the Twelve:

"The Echo allows you to breach the wall of a person's soul, and hear the resonations of their past. You will be there in their memories, seeing things as they saw them. You may even interact with that lies therein. However, the past is like a stone tablet. You cannot uncarve what is already written."

So really, what we all experienced in the first part of the game is not the literal past, but a kind of dreamworld taken from ten year-old memories (when I read that line of Minfilia's memories of FFVIII came back to me - in fact, the very nature of the Echo itself was a lot like Ellone's power in FFVIII.).

The big question is, exactly whose memories did we access during the first part of the game? Especially the very start - if for instance in the Gridanian storyline Papalymo and Yda aren't actually there when you first arrive in the Black Shroud, then who was it then that the Echo accessed memories from? I really hope Ferne can shed some light on this as it's really been bugging me for a while now.

[Myranda]

Having read through this excellent thread I noticed there's however a contradiction to this lore that I'd really like to clarify (I'm really sorry to Ferne, as he's done an awesome job trying to sort out all the lore for us) - and that's the constant reference to the Echo being 'time travel' - it's not, at least, not in the literal sense.

In reality, to me it's more of a form of clairvoyance/telepathy, reading a person's memories and actually 'placing yourself' in them in a kind of dream state - Minfilia mentions this and explains how the Echo works when you first arrive at the Path of the Twelve:



So really, what we all experienced in the first part of the game is not the literal past, but a kind of dreamworld taken from ten year-old memories (when I read that line of Minfilia's memories of FFVIII came back to me - in fact, the very nature of the Echo itself was a lot like Ellone's power in FFVIII.).

The big question is, exactly whose memories did we access during the first part of the game? Especially the very start - if for instance in the Gridanian storyline Papalymo and Yda aren't actually there when you first arrive in the Black Shroud, then who was it then that the Echo accessed memories from? I really hope Ferne can shed some light on this as it's really been bugging me for a while now.

If I'm reading this right, I think I big distinction needs to be made between Ellone's FFVIII power and the Echo. Ellone seemed to send you into the body of someone in the past, and she had to know that person besides. With the Echo, you seem to show up as your own separate entity in the past (and this is the part I might need our resident lore-scholars for...) and I don't think you need to know the person you're jumping into the memories of. Before you learn how to control the Echo, it might be possible you can jump into the collective consciousness of many people floating about in the aether...?

[Catapult]

Ooh! Oooooh!

The memories of Hydaelyn?

Heed the crystal's call...

[Hestern_Nestern]

I dare not stay in this thread for too long, for fear of being lost within it...but I come quickly now to say to Enki:

What you are referring to reminds me a lot of psychometry and retrocognition (which are sometimes said to be related). Or, I guess, retro-remote viewing? He he. Carry on. I just wanted to say that much.

/flee

(It should be noted that neither psychometry nor retrocognition involve being physically present for the event relived but rather involve a downloading of information previously calculated by other hands).

[Enkidoh]

I dare not stay in this thread for too long, for fear of being lost within it...but I come quickly now to say to Enki:

What you are referring to reminds me a lot of psychometry and retrocognition (which are sometimes said to be related). Or, I guess, retro-remote viewing? He he. Carry on. I just wanted to say that much.

/flee

(It should be noted that neither psychometry nor retrocognition involve being physically present for the event relived but rather involve a downloading of information previously calculated by other hands).

Well, your idea is actually very logical Heste - especially when you take into account how those with the Echo are actually perceived by others in the present day during an 'Echo episode' (for lack of a better word) - although not specifically shown it seems that an Echo user who is experiencing the Echo seems to be in a trance or dream state (in other words, time is continuing at it's normal pace in the present), when all of a sudden they 'snap out of it' when it ends.

The original 1.0 opening hinted at this: when Derplander suddenly snaps back to the 'present' after his Echo trip to the Battle of Silvertear Falls his elezen pal sarcastically quips: "Look who's returned from his reverie?" - after checking my old pocket dictionary 'reverie' is stated as being a 'daydream' or 'absent minded state', seeming to suggest that Derplander was physically still in the present, just completely unresponsive nor lucid while his mind jumped back 10 years into the past.

So yeah, psychometry or clairvoyance is a good enough 'real-world' label for the Echo as any (it should also be noted that the other side effect of the Echo - being able to understand any language in Hydaelyn) also has a real-world equivalent: xenoglossia, although it should be noted that the purported incidents of xenoglossia in the real world usually are far less extensive than what Echo users have (xenoglossia evidently only manifests as understanding of a single 'unknown' language, where as the Echo gives apparent mastery over all Hydaelyn languages, even those of the beast tribes).

But I think I've gone off on an Echo-trip of my own here so I'm going to stop now.