CG Midlander

[Anonymoose]

Is there anything supporting they're the same person? <...> he does appear in some cutscenes that don't appear to be in the past, such as the one where he's looking for Emerick on The Executioner or where he's talking to the head of the Blacksmithing guild. The last cutscene with him and Y'shtola also appears to be in the present, even though you do step back in the past with an Echo vision.

Yes, I believe that it's no less than 100% certain they're the same character. I admit now that I haven't been through the Marauder quests, and this is something I'll do at a later point if what is below doesn't convince you.

Let's start with his name. Roegadyn names are based on their ancient language, which is basically just made up of various Germanic influences. Many names are confirmed, others you can figure out easily. Rostnsthalmann's is among the confirmed, but for the sake of completeness, let's use our Admiral's name for an introduction to this concept.

Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn can be split into the ancient Roegadyn words merl (sea), wyb (wife), bloe (blue), fhis (fish) and wyn (daughter). These correspond to words from various ages of Germanic influence, mer (ocean), weib (woman, another word for wife; eg "my woman"), blau (blue), fisch (fish), and wyn, which I'm not entirely sure about but hesitate making connections to because I'm pretty sure it implies daughters are lesser and kind of thought of in monetary terms. Anyway, moving along...

Sthalmann's name comes from the German words sthal (steel) and (Proto-Germanic) mann (man). This is the name he lived under when he able to wear it with pride as Commodore of Limsa Lominsa. However, as Commodore, he had the Admiral assassinated and tried to take the position as his own without a fair Trident by colluding with pirates and stealing The Key. There's no recovering from that - and due to his being caught, he lost everything. His second in command, Reyner, was given his position, he was exiled from the Barracudas, and is thought of city-wide as trash. This is why he changes his name to Rostnsthal, which is made up of the words Rostn (rusty) and Sthal (steel). Thus, because of his shame, he has gone from Man of Steel to Rusted Steel.

Next, almost every echo you enter where Sthalmann is Commodore is triggered by Rostnsthal's presence. Shapeless Melody even underwent changes a while after release to add a tutorial, and in that tutorial we get a much better idea of where this echo event came from. Rostnsthal comes below deck and tells you that he's only seen a storm like this once before, and many people died that night. You go above deck, echo starshower begins, and Sthalmann is present. In this cutscene, you see him firing his weapon. When you enter the Musketeer's guild and take a firing stance for the current Commodore, Reyner (who was Sthalmann's number two), it reminds him of Sthalmann and you enter an echo where he recruits the Sanguine Siren spy. Reyner then tells you that you need a new mentor, as he knows that Sthalmann is a complete disgrace (rusted steel).

At the Blacksmith guild, Rostnsthal brushes past you to confront the guild leader, which triggers an echo where he is discussing the building of a ship to join the Seal Rock expedition, which he is told has been wiped out in this very conversation. We exit this echo, and Rostnstal is engaged in an argument with the guildmaster over whether or not to pay for this very ship, which sunk due to quality control issues stemming from his shoddy investment. When we first visit the Astalicia, we are punched by Rostnsthal, which triggers an echo when he, as Sthalmann, punches Emerick while "arresting" him on this ship some time earlier.

When we visit the ship out at sea, we enter an echo there, as well, except it's either Hob's or the current Commodore's. Neither pirate spy is on the ship at the time, which is why we have to make up an excuse for the Barracuda's when Hob gets arrested. This was all triggered by the sighting of the Serpent Reavers, who last appeared when Travachant attacked the ships. You never see Hob give an order from any of the three ships in this scene.

Take this back to the first time we speak to Baderon, where he tells us that we're not the first person to ask about sea serpents. This causes him to remember being interrogated by Y'shtola, who was only in town for two weeks back when Sthalmann was commodore. This can be shown by Baderon referring to the Admiral as a HE, which we know was some time ago because Merlwyb won the last legal Trident after Sthalmann's execution of the previous admiral after he successfully takes The Key with the help of both pirate faction spies.

The final Sthalmann echo is triggered by Sisipu's memories of her uncle. Sispiu fishes as the same place her uncle used to take her - a little tidepool where the Sahagin dare not go because of the shark toxin. This is where the three colluded together. This is where it gets hairy.

We know from Rostnsthal's echoes how Sthalmann planned to steal the key, from the Commodore's echoes how he used the pirates to do it, and from Sispu's memories where they met to do it. In the last Commodore echo, we're shown that Sthalmann went to Sispu's fishing spot to confront Y'shtola. When we get there, the only person around is Blackburn.

I believe it his he that triggers our last Sthalmann echo. Blackburn suspects us of having the echo, and is waiting for us at this location. After he tells us that he's sure we're going to understand soon, we pass out and enter the culmination of this story, where Travachant makes off with the key, and we wake up back at Baderon's. I think it was Blackburn who first discovered what happened here, as he and Milifinia already know about Y'shtola and her loss of the key.

Again, I could be wrong about any of this, but I'm damn sure that Sthalmann is Rostnsthal a few years(?) back and that we don't meet Y'shtola in real time throughout this entire thing.

I just can't figure out exactly how many damn years ago it was.

Also, just look at them - same haircut, same beardline, same eye color, same skin tone, and the same eye scar, which you can see the bottom of sticking out of Rostnsthal's eyepatch (might need to right-click "View Image" and look at the big versions to see the scar tip).

[Warlock]

~snip~

That was a nice read indeed...but i have a question.. all those echos you experience you don't get the pop up menu if you wanna use the power of the echo or not right? in that case it would be like Gridania , except Gridania is more seamless which leads me to think you only go back in time hours , a couple days max not years like Limsa

[Anonymoose]

all those echos you experience you don't get the pop up menu if you wanna use the power of the echo or not right?

Right. You don't get asked, but you DO get the sound effect. You just don't have any control over the Echo or knowledge of what it is yet, it's just happening to you with no control.

When you first go to The Path of The Twelve, you accidentally echo jump Milfinia, who tells you that this means you've passed her test, she goes as far to say as "I'm guessing this isn't the first time this has happened to you..."

If you watch all of your Mission 1-4 cutscenes, you'll get a little WHOOSH WHOOSH every time and echo starts and finishes aside from the one with the star shower. The ones in Limsa are super, super obvious, not sure if the others are as clear. The characters even get visibly distracted by the memories that cause you to echo them, and after the echo finishes they say things like, "Ah, yes, where was I."

As for how long if a space there is in the Limsa one, I don't know. Sthalmann is ordering his ship from the guild AFTER the sea serpent incident in Shapeless Melody but BEFORE the Seal Rock expedition is destroyed. This, combined with the fact that we know Y'shtola was only sneaking around for a fortnight locks most of these events pretty closely together... but how long ago? I feel like it's years, but I could be wrong.

[Warlock]

Right. You don't get asked, but you DO get the sound effect. You just don't have any control over the Echo or knowledge of what it is yet, it's just happening to you with no control.

When you first go to The Path of The Twelve, you accidentally echo jump Milfinia, who tells you that this means you've passed her test, she goes as far to say as "I'm guessing this isn't the first time this has happened to you..."

If you watch all of your Mission 1-4 cutscenes, you'll get a little WHOOSH WHOOSH every time and echo starts and finishes aside from the one with the star shower. The ones in Limsa are super, super obvious, not sure if the others are as clear. The characters even get visibly distracted by the memories that cause you to echo them, and after the echo finishes they say things like, "Ah, yes, where was I."

As for how long if a space there is in the Limsa one, I don't know. Sthalmann is ordering his ship from the guild AFTER the sea serpent incident in Shapeless Melody but BEFORE the Seal Rock expedition is destroyed. This, combined with the fact that we know Y'shtola was only sneaking around for a fortnight locks most of these events pretty closely together... but how long ago? I feel like it's years, but I could be wrong.

Yes and there is a change of music too...this happens in Gridania as well re-watching the CSs knowing all you know now makes it clear than when you started the game the first time.

Btw what are your thoughts about the mysterious Primal that stopped Gaius? some say people recorded and mistakenly called Midgarsormr a Primal but his sole purpuse was to keep watch over Silver Tear lake's seal not Ala Mhigo

[Anonymoose]

Btw what are your thoughts about the mysterious Primal that stopped Gaius?

I've gotta chalk this one up to unanswered at this point. As I said before, it really looks to me like (in September 2010) the "unanticipated" primal-in-question was meant at the time to refer to the nameless dragon now known to be Midgardsormr. The fact that it was a primal that caused the Empire to remain passive was stated as a matter of fact, and we know that the Empire sure wasn't passive when they flew an armada to Silvertear Lake.

Now (in November 2012), we have new information. This dragon was Midgardsormr, who was not a primal; the empire had met real primals before this on other continents; and SE sticks to their story about a primal stopping the advance. This means that either they're changing it up, or that we were left to draw false conclusions in the past. I can't stress this enough: in 2010, the dragon was nameless and could have been anything. In 2012 we know he's not a primal - but did Square Enix know that back then? We don't know.

This can now be approached from two directions. If we approach from the real-world front, it looks like a retcon. It's not a blatant Lara Croftian in-your-face retcon, but a behind the scenes one that simply ripples through information we already had. The information given in September 2010 just linked too damn well to the opening cutscene to not be what they were referring to. However, this doesn't affect the situation if we approach it from a game-world front. Nothing was ever explicitly stated, there's no direct contradiction because we were only left to make inferences before. From the lore front, Midgardsormr is not a primal, and a primal halted this advance at Ala Mhigo. This is all we know and all we can infer.

Can we guess? ... Eeehhhhh, kinda.

We can whip out our map of Eorzea and write off Leviathan and Titan on the other side of the continent, can probably write off Shiva since the snowy areas are also to the West, can probably write off Ifrit since he's further south than even Silvertear Lake, maybe write off Garuda because it looks like they sailed around Gridania and Coerthas on their way to Silvertear... that leaves Ramuh, basically. Ala Mhigo is north-east of Gridania, which means that if they kept on their march, they'd have bumped into the sylph village first... which they do.

However, we see that the sylphs don't summon Ramuh in these years! BOOM! HEADSHOT!!!1! on that theory.

It's up to SE to make this one work. We don't have anywhere near enough info to say who it was if it wasn't Midgardsormr.

[Warlock]

I've gotta chalk this one up to unanswered at this point. As I said before, it really looks to me like (in September 2010) the "unanticipated" primal-in-question was meant at the time to refer to the nameless dragon now known to be Midgardsormr. The fact that it was a primal that caused the Empire to remain passive was stated as a matter of fact, and we know that the Empire sure wasn't passive when they flew an armada to Silvertear Lake.

Now (in November 2012), we have new information. This dragon was Midgardsormr, who was not a primal; the empire had met real primals before this on other continents; and SE sticks to their story about a primal stopping the advance. This means that either they're changing it up, or that we were left to draw false conclusions in the past. I can't stress this enough: in 2010, the dragon was nameless and could have been anything. In 2012 we know he's not a primal - but did Square Enix know that back then? We don't know.

This can now be approached from two directions. If we approach from the real-world front, it looks like a retcon. It's not a blatant Lara Croftian in-your-face retcon, but a behind the scenes one that simply ripples through information we already had. The information given in September 2010 just linked too damn well to the opening cutscene to not be what they were referring to. However, this doesn't affect the situation if we approach it from a game-world front. Nothing was ever explicitly stated, there's no direct contradiction because we were only left to make inferences before. From the lore front, Midgardsormr is not a primal, and a primal halted this advance at Ala Mhigo. This is all we know and all we can infer.

Can we guess? ... Eeehhhhh, kinda.

We can whip out our map of Eorzea and write off Leviathan and Titan on the other side of the continent, can probably write off Shiva since the snowy areas are also to the West, can probably write off Ifrit since he's further south than even Silvertear Lake, maybe write off Garuda because it looks like they sailed around Gridania and Coerthas on their way to Silvertear... that leaves Ramuh, basically. Ala Mhigo is north-east of Gridania, which means that if they kept on their march, they'd have bumped into the sylph village first... which they do.

However, we see that the sylphs don't summon Ramuh in these years! BOOM! HEADSHOT!!!1! on that theory.

It's up to SE to make this one work. We don't have anywhere near enough info to say who it was if it wasn't Midgardsormr.

I guess is time to summon Fernehalwes from the Void!! to spill the beans unless the identity of the Mysterious Primal is important to remain unknown till ARR

[Alaltus]

However, we see that the sylphs don't summon Ramuh in these years! BOOM! HEADSHOT!!!1! on that theory.

It's up to SE to make this one work. We don't have anywhere near enough info to say who it was if it wasn't Midgardsormr.

Did the Slyphs ever say that they had never summoned their Primal? could be that they made the decision to never summon their Primal after they had summoned him previously. Could be interesting if actually the Ala Mhigan's themselves summoned a Primal to oppose the empire sure would have bought them more time considering the empire halted its advance for 5 years. But yeah its too early to be sure of anything.

[Anonymoose]

Did the Slyphs ever say that they had never summoned their Primal? Could be that they made the decision to never summon their Primal after they had summoned him previously.

Yeah, you're right there. They only ever say that you never should, and that they darken hearts, and that they won't do it. It's never explicitly stated that they never, ever have. They could have gained this knowledge 10 years ago, summoning him then.

I just can't get over that if this was the case, why did SE not add some hints about the Sylphs previous summoning to the bucket-full of hints that the Empire bumped into something? Until Midgardsormr was stated as not-a-primal, it was the most likely inference we would have made, otherwise.

This one is up to SE to clean up - I got nothin'