CG Midlander

[Anonymoose]

Yeah, the paragon thing can go either way. Ascians is a good place to be suspicious since we learn about them at roughly the same time. The main thing I'm suspicious about is that the Archons and Paragons are spoken of in EXACTLY the same manner, down to the wording used in the game script.

Archons come in dark times to lead their people to the light of The Twelve
Paragons come in dark times to lead their people to the light of the Primals

I also started toying around with the idea that the, if the Paragons and Archons are the same, that perhaps they figured they could use the primals like batteries - store up all the aether in things that the Empire would have a hard time taking down, so it would be less likely to be fed to their own purposes... but... that's a bit of a stretch.

For those of you digging through the four city missions before the paths converge, is anyone getting any feeling about how far back these echoes are going?

The timeline is super confusing
Y'shtola's presence in town was stated to be about fortnight (2 weeks)
Baderon tells Y'shtola that, at this time, the Sahagin have been attacking frequently for 5 years (as of when the Serpent was sighted)
Sisipu goes from a young child to whatever she is now
Sthalmann falls from grace and becomes Rostnsthal
Sthalmann's "bill" has become Rostnsthal's "debts"
Baderon was a "wee sprat" the last time the serpent was heard of
The Admiral of Limsa Lominsa is a male defending himself in The Trident

[Warlock]

Yeah, the paragon thing can go either way. Ascians is a good place to be suspicious since we learn about them at roughly the same time. The main thing I'm suspicious about is that the Archons and Paragons are spoken of in EXACTLY the same manner, down to the wording used in the game script.

Archons come in dark times to lead their people to the light of The Twelve
Paragons come in dark times to lead their people to the light of the Primals

I also started toying around with the idea that the, if the Paragons and Archons are the same, that perhaps they figured they could use the primals like batteries - store up all the aether in things that the Empire would have a hard time taking down, so it would be less likely to be fed to their own purposes... but... that's a bit of a stretch.

For those of you digging through the four city missions before the paths converge, is anyone getting any feeling about how far back these echoes are going?

For Limsa, I'm getting about 5 years. Anybody else arriving at that?

In Gridania side i didn't notice an Echo going that far ..what i DID notice is that from the start till you do a full pass out Echo and right after you are told you have this gift at the White Sands you experience the Echo repeatedly , a lot more often than after you are told you have such gift. In all CSs there is a woosh sound that goes together with a change of music and right after it the person you are talking with says something like "huh?, wut were was i? ah! yes as i was saying" you are jumping in and out of Echo constantly the line is lost when you are in and when you are out...so what is this supposed to mean?

[Catapult]

In Gridania side i didn't notice an Echo going that far ..what i DID notice is that from the start till you do a full pass out Echo and right after you are told you have this gift at the White Sands you experience the Echo repeatedly , a lot more often than after you are told you have such gift. In all CSs there is a woosh sound that goes together with a change of music and right after it the person you are talking with says something like "huh?, wut were was i? ah! yes as i was saying" you are jumping in and out of Echo constantly the line is lost when you are in and when you are out...so what is this supposed to mean?

The Gridanian one is also rather confusing. There are two sets of kids, one containing Powle and Sansa (always out of echo), the other containing Krimm and Fye (always in echo), but the two groups don't seem to know each other that well even though they both hang out at the acorn orchard. You get the feeling there has been a seperation of at least a few months, if not up to 10 years (it's hard to tell, but I'm betting about six months because you DO see Powle and co arriving at the echoed version of the festival as well, meaning they are alive and of kid-age), but this all gets turned on it's head with the ceremony at the end of the last quest.

You meet Dunstan out of echo prior to him being cleansed or meeting Fye. O-App-Pesi encourages you to make sure Fye meets Dunstan in the upcoming cleansing rites, since you have been the only person reportably being able to find her as she roams the woods searching for Dunstan. (They just don't realise you've been doing it in the echoed past, not the present.)
You then observe the cleansing rite inside an echo, make sure Fye meets Dunstan inside it and, by the power of that affection presented to the elementals at the ritual, everyone lives happily ever after. The wierd paradox leads me to the only possible conclusion I can think of:

You were rattled by the echo, not because you had an echo-in-an-echo, but because you managed to change history, which is something that normally isn't supposed to happen. A paradox mid-echo would likely knock you out as history re-aligns itself.

Any chance people can apply this concept to the Limsa or Ul'dahn stories?

[NoloeTazier]

I seriously doubt Urianger is a Paragon. I think it's already been established that he's an Archon, unless you think Archons are Paragons. But I don't see Louisoux as a Paragon since he's sending us to kill off summoned primals. I'm not convinced that the Paragon's asking that Ifrit spare us as an act of benevolence. As happy as I am that Hiir Noivl was not fried to a crisp right there, the fact that Ifrit was THERE was essentially the Paragon's FAULT.

So... I'm still thinking Paragons are Ascians.....

Just because he's an Archon I don't think automatically rules him out as a Paragon. The whole Paragon term was associated with him, it could have just been a nasty rumor since rumors had already been spread about him, but Urianger does know how to Summon.

The point I tried to make about 20 pages ago was that maybe Urianger taught the Beastmen how to summon the Primals because they weren't entirely sure if the City States would live up to par in their view. Remember they traveled to the City States to see if they had the power to challenge the Empire. Maybe Urianger taught the Beastmen how to summon so they could fight back against the Empire or protect themselves against the Empire. They had the knowledge to summon them and the knowledge to defeat them.

Now if Urianger isn't a Paragon, that still doesn't make them bad. Just because he/she/they taught the Primals how to summon, that doesn't necessarily make them evil, maybe to us and aether wise. But we don't know the entire motif yet. Also when the Beastmen summoned their Primal for the first time, I would think they would be able to tell if the Paragons were 'evil' like an Ascian. Evil as in, even more tainted than us, shadowless. The Sylphs are very smart and know their magic, if a Paragon was an Ascian I believe they would have known. When the Ascian began to appear in the Path quest the Beastmen became scared (and it seemed like they felt him before he even was even seen).

I have come with another idea.. What if the Ascians are messengers of Odin , He been the Elder Primal Lord of the Underworld and the Ascians seem to come right from there..Odin sends them to free up the Primals why?

Doubt it, I don't think Odin has any impact on 1.0 storyline. I'll still stick by my Odin coming from The Crystal Tower theory. I just feel like Odin has everything to do with the Allagan Empire and may have something to do with Solus zos Galvus but I dunno, the helms are kinda similar lol but I said the same thing about Odin and the Legatus.