DoH Bonecraft

[Griss]

"Cool story, bro" want to explain why they split up and rearranged the elemental table between THM and CNJ mean while leaving out previously used attack spells altogether (Water)? It honestly makes much more sense for there to be a "Bonecraft" profession to utilize the bones/scales more so than BSM/GSM/ARM utilizing them. Goldsmith in general is a jeweler that deals in fine gems and metals..not really the random teeth from wolves.

What are you on about?

Bones teeth and horns have been made into jewelry and considered a precious material since humans started to adorn them selfs with silly baubles.

[IBloodmoon]

having every single job class at max level doesn't significantly impact your ability to make money, at least not in a positive way. if anything it's negative because you have to spend that much more gearing up additional classes. having every single crafting and gathering class at max level, on the other hand, *very significantly* impacts your ability to make money and participate in the game economy. the two examples aren't equivalent whatsoever. your logic fails.

Even if having all your job at max level doesn't affect your ability to make money, it does affect your ability to participate in the content made for that Discipline. "Impacting the economy" is the main content available to DoH and DoL classes. While having all 50's in those disciplines does improve your ability to make money, everyone has the same ability to level those classes and thus effect the economy. Limiting the ability of one discipline to access all advanced classes is exactly the same as limiting another discipline's ability to access all advanced classes.

furthermore, the idea of DoH specialization wouldn't prevent you from having all DoH classes at max level. it would only prevent you from making a certain (likely very small) set of items endemic to that specialization alone. for example: taking a hart guisarme and adding some U/U material that drops from a new raid to make a new, stronger lance.

The same can be said for classes and jobs. Having access to only one job wouldn't prevent you from having all battle classes at max level. It is an unnecessary limitation on both disciplines and goes against the idea of the armory system.

with everyone being able to have every DoH at max level, there's no variance and little interplay between players in the economy. everyone just makes what they need and sells whatever is the hottest thing. specialization would make certain items more rare since the number of people who can make it would decrease, and as a result the value of those items would increase.

The same can be said of having all jobs at 50. There's no variance and little interplay between players, outside of static groups. I won't say everyone, but the majority of PUG's only want whichever job is hot at the time. Restricting people to a single job would make those jobs more rare and valuable.

this would actually make your crafting skills a little more in demand since there would be less supply.

Just because less people would be able to make the items(less supply) does not mean that the demand for those items would be greater. How good the item itself is is what would drive demand.

i don't see how this could possibly be a bad thing.

I can only see this as a bad thing; so, we'll have to agree to disagree. It is an artificial limitation anyway, because I would just make 8 alternate characters to have all the specializations anyway. But this would be an unfair restriction to any non-legacy players that would have to pay for the additional character slots. Besides that fact that I really don't want to have to level all the DoH classes 8 times.

I don't actually agree with limiting everyone to a single job; I'm just trying to point out that it is just as absurd to limit DoH as it is to limit DoW/DoM.

TL;DR: Having unnecessary limitations on DoH/DoL classes is bad. Mmm'k.

On topic: The list looks pretty cool, but I don't see a need to split it off of the goldsmith class.

[Hiruke]

"Crafter specialization" is not some kind of a magic wand to fix the economy, either for specific items or in general. We had that in FF11. Being able to make a decent profit on an item only lasted so long before a ton of other people decided to also make that item and flood the market. The only way to keep any particular craftable items at a good profit margin is to have a wide variance of highly desirable craftable items that consistently sell. If, for example, the only things people generally wanted were class weapons for relics, eventually the price is going to completely tank, regardless of how many hoops you have to jump through in order to craft them.

At a certain point, it starts feeling pointless to continue mining for low HQ rate, crafting materials with good HQ rate, crafting with mix ins from vendor for low HQ rate, crafting parts with mediocre HQ rate, and rarely if ever HQing the end product... Some people will keep trudging along flooding the market for less profit than before while others get disheartened from their terrible luck busting 2-3 darksteel ingots and/or 5-6 flawless parts in a row and consider the whole thing a huge waste of time. Even when folks bow out, that won't help the prices, because those who remain will continue to make huge volumes of the item.

Granted, it's still better than FF11, where you couldn't sell anything of value at anything but a HUGE LOSS unless it was HQ, where you often barely broke even, considering how many other people made the same item and apparently didn't do it for the gil. It ended up that most of anything worth selling (for a high price tag) was drops, not crafted items.

There's definitely stuff that could be done to improve the economy, but crafter specialization isn't one of those things. After their last great effort on this, the super terrible materia system (which is the most luck-based nonsense in a game that is mostly luck-based), I'm really not interested in seeing them try to fix it anymore. Granted, it did "breathe life" into the economy, but I don't think we're better off for it, unless you're really lucky and super love to kill mobs in SB gear all day and night.

[Hiruke]

Come to think of it, "crafter specialization" could actually make things worse. Currently, since anyone can make anything (if they invest the time), if a certain item isn't turning enough profit, they can seek to make a different item and try to find some kind of equilibrium. With "crafter specialization", they'd have to level their alts as well in order to do this. Assuming the high ticket items are the ones that require "crafter specialization", you could be in for a world of hurt if you decided to specialize in a craft a lot of other people specialized in. You could fool yourself into think the "less popular" crafts would then turn a way higher profit... and you'd even be right... for a very short period before enough people joined the club to flood the hell out of the market, which is the inevitable conclusion to that little drama.

Bottom line, the way to fix it would be a wide variety of highly desirable craftable items, so folks don't just focus on a small subset.

[fusional]

Come to think of it, "crafter specialization" could actually make things worse. Currently, since anyone can make anything (if they invest the time), if a certain item isn't turning enough profit, they can seek to make a different item and try to find some kind of equilibrium. With "crafter specialization", they'd have to level their alts as well in order to do this. Assuming the high ticket items are the ones that require "crafter specialization", you could be in for a world of hurt if you decided to specialize in a craft a lot of other people specialized in. You could fool yourself into think the "less popular" crafts would then turn a way higher profit... and you'd even be right... for a very short period before enough people joined the club to flood the hell out of the market, which is the inevitable conclusion to that little drama.

it's like you guys are knee-jerk reacting so hard that you don't want to actually read and process what's being talked about here.

you don't
specialize
in
a
craft

you specialize
in
one
craft's
specialization

you keep all your precious level 50 DOHs (i have them too, captain) and DOLs, you keep all your recipes, you keep your ability to make ANYTHING... except for a very small subset of special items only one craft's specialization can make. IE: you can make everything in the damn game that you can already make now- but choosing one specialization would add another few items you can make. and only that specialization can make it.

if you think this will somehow miraculously change the game economy and that you'd be FORCED to level alts to have every specialization, you're out of your god damned mind and you understand econ even less than i'd anticipated. unless you're just OCD and OMGOMGNEEDTOHAVEITALL- you can still make sarngas and mailbreakers and rampagers and obelisks and felt cavalier hats and ringbands of storms and mahogany pattens and lightning brands and meld them up and sell them for ENORMOUS profit, just like you've ALWAYS been able to do with very little effort. but then you'd also get a few new items only people who choose that specialization would make.

no matter how you try to spin it, allowing everyone to have every craft at max level lowers demand for crafting services. why would i need to commission you to make anything for me? i can make it my damn self, and for much less. but if you have a specialization i don't, and i need something made- hey, look, a new market. i pay you to make something i can't. one of the five items in the entire game that i can't make.

so not only can you sell these (maybe? unless they make them U/U which would also be fine) for profit, making extra money you wouldn't have been able to make otherwise, but you can sell the service of making them for people who chose different specializations.

if you're worried about an imbalance of one thing being more in demand than another, then i guess we have to nerf EVERY SINGLE DOH every time a new patch introduces new goods that end up being more in demand than others, right? to make it fair? because, get this- even though you have the ABILITY to level all crafts to 50... that doesn't necessarily mean that you *have* all crafts to 50. so if you chose the wrong craft to level... i guess you're screwed, eh? until the economy shifts again with a new patch and new recipes and your craft becomes more profitable.

no, ffxi didn't have this. this is nothing like ffxi. the examples aren't equivalent. ridiculous comparison. ffxi let you level everything halfway and then you could only choose one to take to 100. this isn't the same thing at all. maybe you're knee-jerk reacting based on your experience with this. is this the only crafting system you've ever experienced? is it all you know? is that why you run back to that every time you need a frame of reference, in spite of the two things not being comparable?

though even with ffxi, every craft had the ability to make tons of money. alchemy and cooking seemed to be on the short end of the stick (and alchemy kind of was), but they did it differently. that was about a constant influx of consumable items with little to no personal risk. the other crafts made money through HQing big ticket items, and running the risk of breaking them and losing the mats.

crafting in this game gives you both options already, with every/all classes. you can take the easy safe route to make money, just selling materials or finished products (which are in effect consumable since you can SB them or break them with melding attempts), or you can accept the risks and go for HQs and melds for greater profit (and sometimes pure loss)

it's homogenized. nothing stands out from anything else. there's no demand for anyone else's services unless you're simply feeling lazy. there's *no impetus to interact with the player base or the game economy* because you can do it all yourself. and people wonder why the game's community feels so less tight-knit than in XI...

so specialization would offer all the perks that came with XI's system without any of the major downfalls. you lose no recipes, but gain a few new ones. you benefit immediately from higher demand on simple principle of there being less suppliers. you lose nothing. literally. nothing. all you could possibly make an argument for losing is potential earnings by choosing a specialization with items that end up selling for slightly less than another.

and you know what? get over it. if the point of an MMORPG was to equalize everything so everyone has the same shot to do every single thing and make every single thing and acquire every single thing, what's the point of hard mode fights? what's the point of relic? what's the point of anything?

and don't even start with this "oh well then i guess we should only allow people to choose one battle class" antilogic. if having every battle class at 50 is even remotely comparable i should be seeing far more of you parading around in relic and white ravens. except those are plenty exclusive in spite of everyone having all 50 battle classes. weird, right?

and one last thing for emphasis:

Bottom line, the way to fix it would be a wide variety of highly desirable craftable items, so folks don't just focus on a small subset.

so your logic is that having a few new unique recipes for each specialization would render everything else undesirable and suddenly everyone only makes the specialized things. wrong again.

people will still need SB gear
people will still need class weapons for relic
people will still need HQ crafting gear and HQ tools
people will still need darksteel haubs and vanya sashes
people will still need fingerless raptorskin gloves (in bulk)
etc etc

introducing a couple new, more exclusive items doesn't eliminate need for others. it doesn't impact them in any way. class weapons spiked in popularity for relic, but that's been the only change in market for over a year. everything else has pretty much remained steady.

people don't stop buying milk and eggs because a few stores carry new, exclusive espresso machines.

[NoctisUmbra]

Adding a specialization is a good thing. Key word here is adding. Good thing Yoshi had already confirmed in the past that players will be able to select one craft to pursue mastery in. So as far as DoH goes in the future, relating to specializations and or mastery, players will already be limited to mastering one crafted class while they can simply cap the others.

Even in ARR we know each DoH is becoming more independent with less cross classing skills and less dependence on levelling multiple crafts to be good at one.

[IBloodmoon]

it's like you guys are knee-jerk reacting so hard that you don't want to actually read and process what's being talked about here.

Funny, that's what I was thinking about your posts. If your head hasn't exploded, allow me to retort. I have never said that it was about making money, you were the one to bring that up. I've always said that its about not limiting one discipline's advancement opportunities with no regard to the others.

if you think this will somehow miraculously change the game economy and that you'd be FORCED to level alts to have every specialization, you're out of your god damned mind and you understand econ even less than i'd anticipated.

Personally, I don't think that specializations would have any impact whatsoever on the economy, positive or negative. I will reiterate what I posted earlier. Having less people be able to make an item doesn't magically make the demand for it higher, how good an item is compared to what else is available makes the the demand higher or lower.

unless you're just OCD and OMGOMGNEEDTOHAVEITALL.

Yes I admit I am OCD and OMGOMGNEEDTOHAVEITALL. I don't see why one group of players should be able to have it all in there chosen field but the rest should not.

make stuff and meld them up and sell them for ENORMOUS profit, just like you've ALWAYS been able to do with very little effort.

I am probably one of the poorest crafters with multiple 50's there is, but I will have to disagree with you on the ease of making and double/triple melding items.

no matter how you try to spin it, allowing everyone to have every craft at max level lowers demand for crafting services.

Again it does not change the demand for services, it increases the supply of those services available. If you are going to continually use that as an argument at least say it correctly.

why would i need to commission you to make anything for me? i can make it my damn self, and for much less. but if you have a specialization i don't, and i need something made- hey, look, a new market. i pay you to make something i can't. one of the five items in the entire game that i can't make.

Because while you and I might be willing to level all our crafts to 50(except CUL for me, its such a pain, but still I plug away at it. ), most people are not willing to do it and a lot of people aren't even interested in crafting at all(according to the player polls at least.)

if you're worried about an imbalance of one thing being more in demand than another, then i guess we have to nerf EVERY SINGLE DOH every time a new patch introduces new goods that end up being more in demand than others, right? to make it fair? because, get this- even though you have the ABILITY to level all crafts to 50... that doesn't necessarily mean that you *have* all crafts to 50. so if you chose the wrong craft to level... i guess you're screwed, eh? until the economy shifts again with a new patch and new recipes and your craft becomes more profitable.

not worried about this in the slightest.

no, ffxi didn't have this. this is nothing like ffxi. the examples aren't equivalent. ridiculous comparison. ffxi let you level everything halfway and then you could only choose one to take to 100. this isn't the same thing at all. maybe you're knee-jerk reacting based on your experience with this. is this the only crafting system you've ever experienced? is it all you know? is that why you run back to that every time you need a frame of reference, in spite of the two things not being comparable?

though even with ffxi, every craft had the ability to make tons of money. alchemy and cooking seemed to be on the short end of the stick (and alchemy kind of was), but they did it differently. that was about a constant influx of consumable items with little to no personal risk. the other crafts made money through HQing big ticket items, and running the risk of breaking them and losing the mats.

Never said anything about FFXI, I didn't play it long enough or recently enough to have a informed opinion on the game. While I enjoyed it at the time, events outside of the game prevented me from playing. I know you might not have meant this part in response to me, but since you didn't specify, I felt obliged to respond. [/QUOTE]

crafting in this game gives you both options already, with every/all classes. you can take the easy safe route to make money, just selling materials or finished products (which are in effect consumable since you can SB them or break them with melding attempts), or you can accept the risks and go for HQs and melds for greater profit (and sometimes pure loss)

I agree and its nice to finally have a game where selling finished items is actually more profitable that selling the materials themselves. I have played several MMo's and this is rarely the case.

it's homogenized. nothing stands out from anything else. there's no demand for anyone else's services unless you're simply feeling lazy. there's *no impetus to interact with the player base or the game economy* because you can do it all yourself. and people wonder why the game's community feels so less tight-knit than in XI...

Have to disagree here for the reason listed above. I have quite a bit of interaction with the community doing repairs, melding, and making requested items for people. If you don't then your server is vastly different from mine or you have no desire to look for those people that need your services.

so specialization would offer all the perks that came with XI's system without any of the major downfalls. you lose no recipes, but gain a few new ones. you benefit immediately from higher demand on simple principle of there being less suppliers. you lose nothing. literally. nothing. all you could possibly make an argument for losing is potential earnings by choosing a specialization with items that end up selling for slightly less than another.

I like the idea of "jobs" for DoH classes, but I am completely against limiting the number of them you can have.

and you know what? get over it. if the point of an MMORPG was to equalize everything so everyone has the same shot to do every single thing and make every single thing and acquire every single thing, what's the point of hard mode fights? what's the point of relic? what's the point of anything?

I'm not sure where this came from, but the whole point of the armory system was to allow people to play as all the classes on a single character. It kind of goes against the point of the armory system to me.

and don't even start with this "oh well then i guess we should only allow people to choose one battle class" antilogic. if having every battle class at 50 is even remotely comparable i should be seeing far more of you parading around in relic and white ravens. except those are plenty exclusive in spite of everyone having all 50 battle classes.

Its not anitlogic, which isn't a word to begin with, to say that limiting the advancement of one discipline is the same as limiting the advancement of another discipline. If you really want to argue that having all jobs at 50 doesn't increase your chances of participating in end game content, there are a slew of threads saying "I can't get in a group to do X content because I don't have Y job" i can point you to. Its not about making the items, its about having the ability to make the items. You certainly see people with all battle classes leveled having a greater shot at participating in relic quests and Van Darnus hard mode because they have the flexibility to come as what is needed/wanted.

weird, right?

Not really.

and one last thing for emphasis

This is clearly not aimed at me, so I will skip this part. On a final note though, you may want to clean up your own antilogic, whatever that is, and the contradictions that riddle your own arguments before belittling other people's POV.

@OP I am sorry for hijacking your thread. You have some good ideas for adding recipes for bonecraft that I think should just stay under GSM class.

TL;DR: Advanced DoH jobs would great, but I don't want them to limit us to just one. If they do, then I will just make alts that non-legacy players will have to pay for to be on an equal footing with those of us OCD inflicted legacy members that do.

/threadhijack off

[Xeonerable]

We need more battle classes not crafting classes...