Lets Talk - Red Mage

[Hulan]

Would just like to give this quote extra face time...

lol except for some very rare moments where you were useful in other aspects (like twitch some other class is failing their job moments).

Oh I don't know, there was something hypnotically relaxing about casting two spells back and forth every 4 seconds.

Who am I kidding, I begged borrowed and stole to make sure I could go as BLM to events instead of RDM.

[Ladon]

The problem is, making a class the is centered around short buffs that have to be cast repeatedly is not fun. It's actually incredibly annoying. It is exactly what Red Mage deteriorated in to in XI. Refresh Haste Refresh Haste Refresh Haste Refresh Haste. You spend so much time buffing people that you don't actually get to do anything fun. It sucks. The only reason Red Mage was popular in XI is because of it's ability to Solo. No one really enjoyed playing it in a Party.

Red Mage has a place on the front line. The same place it has since the Beginning. All the way up until XI completely failed to give it reasonable Melee Damage. The Key to making Red Mage a front line Job is by not gimping it's melee skills. Ignorant people would think this over powers the Red Mage, but it doesn't. You can't melee and cast at the same time.

I'm not really sure where this idea of Red Mage came from. Even in the single player games they were supporters filling many roles so it's completely valid to branch them from any of these roles to fit a MMO.

This concept of being boring is also subjective. You could make the same argument with White Mage since its just Cure Regen Cure Regen Cure Regen Cure Regen Cure. Actually ANY class can be broken down into this. In reality it's the enemy mechanics that make a role fun. As I mentioned, they just need to make enemies that play to the strengths of an enhancement class to make them fun just like with any other class.

[Kiote]

Even in the single player games they were supporters filling many roles

No they weren't. They were always very very powerful front line fighters. Most debuffs were completely ignored in early final fantasies and buffs were only ever necessary in boss fights.

This concept of being boring is also subjective. You could make the same argument with White Mage since its just Cure Regen Cure Regen Cure Regen Cure Regen Cure. Actually ANY class can be broken down into this.

No, it's not subjective. It is quite objective. There must always be a thrill for a class to remain enjoyable for an extended period of time. Tanks constantly have to worry about keeping the hate and wondering if they will survive. This minor paranoia creates a thrill that draws people to the class. Melees and Nukers have the thrill of seeing large number fly off the screen while always being at risk of pushing things to far and getting killed. Healers have the thrill of the whole fight depending on them and everyone's lives being in their hands. One bad mistake and its all over.

Nothing depends on a Buffing class. Nothing. The difference between a good buffer and a bad buffer is a 30 second fight instead of a 40 second fight. There is no thrill and no rush on any level. In XI Bards had to figure out how to both buff and pull just so they weren't so bored they wanted to die. In the end, they mastered the task leaving Ranger without a Job.

The same problem applies for Debuffers. Yoshida saw this. I can guarantee it. Now summoners don't have to settle for commanding a Pet once a minute or becoming backup healers. They have taken One really boring task and mixed it in to one Really popular Class and now Debuffers do not have to be bored anymore. Everquest used this same tactic on buffing class with Enchanters. By mixing them in to a Pet Class, the horrible boredom was eaten away by the thrill of having a pet to command in the midst of the fight.

[Duelle]

We're still missing stuff like:

-Haste
-Reflect/Damage shields
-En- spells
-ATK enhancement
-MAG ATK enhancement

Haste is not going to be in-game according to Yoshida. And if he were to change his mind, I'd expect it to be implemented similar to how Bloodlust/Heroism/Time Warp works in WoW (30-40% Haste for 12 seconds), but as part of Time Mage's spell repertoire.

Reflect doesn't work in an MMO unless it's a one-use spell. Even then, I'd have to ask that you still take damage before the spell is reflected back for balance purposes. Damage shields belong on dedicated healers. Build a healer around it, call it Mystic/Oracle/Geomancer and you're done. Unless it's self-only, then I can see RDM having it.

En-spells have melee mage written all over it, and that's what should be used to make RDM's combat style shine. As such, I'd expect those to be self-only.

Attack and Magic Attack I can see, but it'd have to be an instant cast 30-minute group buff that grants both effects.

I really just don't see a place for RDM on the frontlines in a MMO. It makes far more sense for them to be built as a good, dynamic enhancer.

My troll-o-meter is going into red from this comment, but I'll bite: the discussions that have been going on over several years since the FFXI mess, combined with the plethora of suggestions since then make front-line Red Mage very plausible and wanted. Find some other suckerjob to shackle to "enhancing only".

I'm not really sure where this idea of Red Mage came from. Even in the single player games they were supporters filling many roles so it's completely valid to branch them from any of these roles to fit a MMO.

Simple. Class design as per single-player Final Fantasy games cannot be carbon copied into an MMO. It doesn't work. XI proved this easily. Hence why you take the classes and adapt them to how they would fit. SE chose poorly in XI. We are hoping they choose wisely this time around.

No, it's not subjective. It is quite objective. There must always be a thrill for a class to remain enjoyable for an extended period of time. Tanks constantly have to worry about keeping the hate and wondering if they will survive. This minor paranoia creates a thrill that draws people to the class. Melees and Nukers have the thrill of seeing large number fly off the screen while always being at risk of pushing things to far and getting killed. Healers have the thrill of the whole fight depending on them and everyone's lives being in their hands. One bad mistake and its all over.

Nothing depends on a Buffing class. Nothing. The difference between a good buffer and a bad buffer is a 30 second fight instead of a 40 second fight. There is no thrill and no rush on any level. In XI Bards had to figure out how to both buff and pull just so they weren't so bored they wanted to die. In the end, they mastered the task leaving Ranger without a Job.

The same problem applies for Debuffers. Yoshida saw this. I can guarantee it. Now summoners don't have to settle for commanding a Pet once a minute or becoming backup healers. They have taken One really boring task and mixed it in to one Really popular Class and now Debuffers do not have to be bored anymore. Everquest used this same tactic on buffing class with Enchanters. By mixing them in to a Pet Class, the horrible boredom was eaten away by the thrill of having a pet to command in the midst of the fight.

I...I think I love you.

[KoujiGeki]

When do you see people use Con over a Whm.....

[Wynn]

White mage is conjurer's job. It is a buffer/healer too. Didn't think I needed to explain that.

[Shougun]

THM + GLD + CONJ = Red Mage magic damage focus*
CNJ + GLD + THM = Red Mage healing focus
GLD + CNJ + THM = Red Mage tank focus
MRD / Archer / Monk + CNJ + THM = Red Mage melee focus

. . .

Unless they make a job class Orb that can require multiple classes and subjob multiple classes the Red Mage class will either be a rehash and silly, or something different then we are used to.


* I go to a lot of events as THM, GLD, CNJ, MNK, ARC
Cure, raise, protect, stoneskin, sentinel, rampart, second wind, featherfoot, and quelling strike.

(combo doesn't work for some things but that's expected when you spread yourself out - but for Ifrit it is a pretty golden combo to end up stopping a team wipe when both white mages and tank are down)

[moriandrio]

No they weren't. They were always very very powerful front line fighters. Most debuffs were completely ignored in early final fantasies and buffs were only ever necessary in boss fights.

So you want a very very powerfull frontline job, that gets nuke/heal/buff/debuff skills. This will never happen, if they implement RDM it gotta be a backline job that actually does the same it allready did in ffxi and not more.

Most ppl that want RDM, want a overpowerd solojob they can kite everything to death like it was possbile in FFXI but i doubt SE gonna be so stupid doing this again.

[SwordCoheir]

So you want a very very powerfull frontline job, that gets nuke/heal/buff/debuff skills. This will never happen, if they implement RDM it gotta be a backline job that actually does the same it allready did in ffxi and not more.

Most ppl that want RDM, want a overpowerd solojob they can kite everything to death like it was possbile in FFXI but i doubt SE gonna be so stupid doing this again.

Quite the opposite, most who disdain people who want RDM or when RDM's ask for something relevant, seem to jump to this conclusion. If anything most RDM's and people desiring RDM want to have their own uniqueness that's sought after by groups while keeping within the RDM's spectrum of front liner with magic capabilities a battle-mage or spell-sword if you will, most do not want the bastardized FFXI rendition of RDM that lost 98% it's uniqueness and effectiveness after the level cap went beyond 75 that SE mostly left untouched for over 8 years.

[Ladon]

Quite the opposite, most who disdain people who want RDM or when RDM's ask for something relevant, seem to jump to this conclusion. If anything most RDM's and people desiring RDM want to have their own uniqueness that's sought after by groups while keeping within the RDM's spectrum of front liner with magic capabilities a battle-mage or spell-sword if you will, most do not want the bastardized FFXI rendition of RDM that lost 98% it's uniqueness and effectiveness after the level cap went beyond 75 that SE mostly left untouched for over 8 years.

You aren't going to find any uniqueness in creating yet another DD focused class.

Also this idea of RDMs being frontline is a total arbitrary concept made up by a certain subset of people. RDMs are as people are aware a jack of all trades. They can somewhat fight and somewhat use spells. People also realize that this jack-of-all-trades style does not work in MMOs and therefore need to focus the RDMs in one of it's trades to be considered useful. This however does not mean he has to be a front line fighter. This is just one route to go. They can also take the class more towards it's spell casting perspective and still be a Red Mage. They did this poorly with FFXI, however I blame it more on the mechanics of the game NOT the concept of the class. The concept of the class was solid, they just ended up watering down FFXI by making too many jobs and bleeding class roles all over the place.

Once again, a enhancer RDM in FF14 is completely valid. It could easily be made to fill a unique role as one unlike trying to make it another Dragoon with a different set of weaponskills and a cool hat. And once again, thoughtful engagement of a class is determined more by the content, not the design of the class. If enmity was for example proximity based, a tank in this game would be completely boring. BLM roles are already marginally boring on the ones that just require them to stand in one spot casing Thunder combos all fight. Enemies without AEs are boring as hell for most melee DD and low damage fights such as Hamlet are snorefests for WHMs that actually make me hate playing the class in them.