If SE is taking away my hard work...

[Punainen]

I don't think Ward prices will ever drop to a tenth of their current, and THAT bugs me about the redenomination, but...prices will never go BACK to what they were pre-2.0... Because gil will be 10 times harder to earn in the first place.

[Ferth]

If an item becomes 11% its value, you have LOST ONE PERCENT of wealth, that is fact.
^ Thats maths.

The point I've made numerous times and you have actually tried to use as well. The value of items are already fluctuating. Do you consider yourself having gained wealth when an item you sell occasionally suddenly jumps up in price? Do you consider yourself losing wealth when an item you occasionally sell drops in price? Do you consider yourself losing wealth when an item you occasionally buy goes up in price? Do you consider yourself gaining wealth when an item you occasionally buy drops in price?

These occurrences already happen. They aren't something you can blame on the redenomination. I have to say this over and over again because you seem to keep insisting that they some how do. That makes your argument weak. Since the inverse is true, it can't effectively argue for either direction.

Let's use a hypothetical situation. To be clear, none of what I am about to say will probably happen.

Let's say that in 2.0 they release a recipe for a new level 50 sword that can be used by paladins and gladiators. The recipe has a similar cost in items to make as the level 49 cobalt winglet but in every stat it is better. Because of this new item the value of cobalt winglets will plummet, because the value plummets, the supply will dwindle as people move to making the new swords and stop making the cobalt winglet. In this situation the value of winglets will drop because the demand for the item drops.

Now let's use another hypothetical situation. And for the sake of simplicity we will use cobalt winglets again. Right now it takes 2 cobalt ingots to make a winglet (and a few other items.) Cobalt ingots can be earned in level 45-50 blacksmithing leves or they can be mined rather easily by level 50 miners. (let's use the hypothetical situation of a level 50 miner getting about a stack of cobalt ingots in an hour which can then be turned into 50 ingots.)

Now let's pretend that when 2.0 comes around leves no longer reward cobalt ingots and the rate for miners drops down to 1/4th of a stack in an hour. Because cobalt has become significantly more rare the price for nuggets goes up, which causes the price for ingots to go up which causes the price for cobalt winglets to go up. Again we have a value change for the item that has absolutely nothing to do with the redenomination.

Another point that has been mentioned numerous times in this thread is that the value of items in 2.0 will be set by their supply and demand within the 2.0 economy. Those factors are set by so many more things than the value of the gil used to buy it.

Furthermore trying to hold up current values as reference points for values in 2.0 is a flawed argument because the values of the items will change based on their position in the new game. The redenomination is going to be a very small factor in 2.0 prices.

This is not really a debate that is going on. You don't seem to recognize anyone's view but your own. You feel like you are beating your head against a wall? That's because you are. But the wall is in your mind, and it represents your own close-mindedness.

I do actually understand the point you are making. I have actually stated your points several times. If I have portrayed them inaccurately, by all means correct them.

Part of a debate is being able to present your own views in an understandable manner. The other part is being able to take the opposing views and disseminate them. You haven't done either. You just keep repeating your flawed arguments and shouting "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!"

[viion]

The point I've made numerous times and you have actually tried to use as well. The value of items are already fluctuating. Do you consider yourself having gained wealth when an item you sell occasionally suddenly jumps up in price? Do you consider yourself losing wealth when an item you occasionally sell drops in price? Do you consider yourself losing wealth when an item you occasionally buy goes up in price? Do you consider yourself gaining wealth when an item you occasionally buy drops in price?

Not bothering to reply to it all because I will repeat myself, like you are repeating yourself. There is no point to this debate because you are not going to change my view and I will not accept I am wrong when I believe how something will turn out. You might as well tell the pope that god doesnt exist...

If ALL items in 1.0 over night went to 2x their price, yes I would be considered less wealthy, everyone would.
If ALL items in 1.0 over night went to 0.5x their, yes I would be considered more wealthy, everyone would.

If you have 1m in 1.0 and over night all items jump to 3m from 1m, you are not wealthy, you are not as rich as you were, that is my belief, and how I will argue, if you think that is stupid or wrong, then thats your opinion, you are not going to change how I think or see things.

but I would be absolutely amazed if the prices used in the first week of 2.0 persist passed the first month.

I thought you was so sure it wouldnt? I predict it will last longer than the first week and the longer it lasts, the more gil is put into the economy that then makes the reducing scale of an item balance out faster.

You might not believe it will be happen and be absolutely amazed if it does, I however believe it has a very good possibility, I am not WRONG to have that belief of what I think will happen.

[Ferth]

Not bothering to reply to it all because I will repeat myself, like you are repeating yourself. There is no point to this debate because you are not going to change my view and I will not accept I am wrong when I believe how something will turn out. You might as well tell the pope the god doesnt exist...

If ALL items in 1.0 over night went to 2x their price, yes I would be considered less wealthy, everyone would.
If ALL items in 1.0 over night went to 0.5x their, yes I would be considered more wealthy, everyone would.

If you have 1m in 1.0 and over night all items jump to 3m from 1m, you are not wealthy, you are not as rich as you were, that is my belief, and how I will argue, if you think that is stupid or wrong, then thats your opinion, you are not going to change how I think or see things.

I didn't say all items. I said a a few items that you occasionally buy or sell. And I didn't say anything nearly as sweeping as 100% or 50%. 1% would easily fit the example and share your point as a reference.

Do you actually believe that every single item in 2.0 is going to cost more than it's 1.0 relative value? And that those values will persist for a sustained period of time?

My prediction: when 2.0 comes around, everyone (myself included) will think these redenomination threads were a huge waste of time.

Frankly, SE shouldn't have bothered making this announcement 'til the servers were already down. Because when 2.0 rolls around most of the people who feel jipped are either not going to be playing, or not going to care anymore.

[viion]

I didn't say all items. I said a a few items that you occasionally buy or sell. And I didn't say anything nearly as sweeping as 100% or 50%. 1% would easily fit the example and share your point as a reference.

Do you actually believe that every single item in 2.0 is going to cost more than it's 1.0 relative value? And that those values will persist for a sustained period of time?

My prediction: when 2.0 comes around, everyone (myself included) will think these redenomination threads were a huge waste of time.

Frankly, SE shouldn't have bothered making this announcement 'til the servers were already down. Because when 2.0 rolls around most of the people who feel jipped are either not going to be playing, or not going to care anymore.

Huh when did I say relative to its 1.0 value?

I clearly said so many goddamn times, an item might start at 5m if it was 10m. this is CLEARLY LESS, 5 is LESS than 10, not relative, or higher, like you think I said. It is not "cost more than its 1.0 relative value" it costs LESS but NOT 1/10TH. I have said this about 10 times, in every post I have said it. But you choose not to listen.

A Double Meld Relic Bow for example I DO NOT THINK will reduce to 3m from 30m, i think it will start at about 15m and reduce to around 10m. I dont think it ever will, ever, at all be 3m.

I AM saying all items, doesn't matter about a few i occasionally sell because a few don't make up the pricing structure, they all do.

Way to also completely bash me for accusing people of actions then go and do it yourself, very hypocritical...

[Ferth]

Huh when did I say relative to its 1.0 value?

I clearly said so many goddamn times, an item might start at 5m if it was 10m. this is CLEARLY LESS, 5 is LESS than 10, not relative, or higher, like you think I said. It is not "cost more than its 1.0 relative value" it costs LESS but NOT 1/10TH. I have said this about 10 times, in every post I have said it. But you choose not to listen.

A Double Meld Relic Bow for example I DO NOT THINK will reduce to 3m from 30m, i think it will start at about 15m and reduce to around 10m. I dont think it ever will, ever, at all be 3m.

I AM saying all items, doesn't matter about a few i occasionally sell because a few don't make up the pricing structure, they all do.

Way to also completely bash me for accusing people of actions then go and do it yourself, very hypocritical...

Do you even know what relative means? Every time you compare a 1.0 price with a projected 2.0 price that is a relative comparison. Every example you have used has used relative pricing. That's what your whole prediction has been about. Higher relative prices for items in 2.0 equating to a loss of wealth.

A Double Meld Relic Bow for example I DO NOT THINK will reduce to 3m from 30m, i think it will start at about 15m and reduce to around 10m. I dont think it ever will, ever, at all be 3m.

the 1.0 price is 30m. Every comparison you make, be it 3m or 15m is relative to that price. it depends on that 30m as a frame of reference to describe the change it has undergone. THAT'S WHAT RELATIVE MEANS.

In a perfect world that relative price will be 3m. The item would retain 100% of it's current value when compared to the shift in gil everyone will undergo.

You are afraid it won't even be close to that, starting at 15m which means the relative price would be 500% of it's current value.

The point I am trying to make is we don't even know if that bow will be required for relic in 2.0. and if it isn't then the price won't even be close to 3m.

The question you have to truly consider though is are you willing to pay 30m for the bow right now? If no, then the pricing doesn't concern you at all. If yes, the question then becomes "are you willing to pay 150m for it right now." If no, then guess what? Chances are almost everyone feels the same way. If yes, then I have some things I'd like to sell you.

[Vindrax]

A Double Meld Relic Bow for example I DO NOT THINK will reduce to 3m from 30m, i think it will start at about 15m and reduce to around 10m. I dont think it ever will, ever, at all be 3m.

How confident are you in this statement? 100%? If so, I assume you are currently dumping all of your gil to stock up on these to make a killer profit in 2.0?

I'm being very serious about this and I want to know honestly if you truly believe this, you should be dumping all of your gil currently to stock up on these items. And if you aren't, I'd like to know why.

[Almalexia]

Opponents to redenomination are describing ignorant buyers/sellers in their "lost wealth" arguments, but they are blaming redenomination for the loss. Whether gil is universally cut to 1/10th or not has no effect on people's business acumen, spending habits, avarice or lack thereof. These values will not change in 2.0.

If a seller marks an item at 1.0 prices, he doesn't understand how redenomination works--or he doesn't care.
If a buyer purchases an item for 1.0 prices, he doesn't understand how redenomination works--or he doesn't care.

The experience will be similar to a patch day inflation when new items are introduced. I think the last rush FFXIV had was with DoH hats. How long did that last?

[viion]

Opponents to redenomination are describing ignorant buyers/sellers in their "lost wealth" arguments, but they are blaming redenomination for the loss. Whether gil is universally cut to 1/10th or not has no effect on people's business acumen, spending habits, avarice or lack thereof. These values will not change in 2.0.

If a seller marks an item at 1.0 prices, he doesn't understand how redenomination works--or he doesn't care.
If a buyer purchases an item for 1.0 prices, he doesn't understand how redenomination works--or he doesn't care.

The experience will be similar to a patch day inflation when new items are introduced. I think the last rush FFXIV had was with DoH hats. How long did that last?

Why should someone a sell an item for 1/10th and care about what is trying to happen with redenomination when when he can sell it at 5/10ths of its current value, and 20 other people can sell for around that mark also.

[Punainen]

Why should someone a sell an item for 1/10th and care about what is trying to happen with redenomination when when he can sell it at 5/10ths of its current value, and 20 other people can sell for around that mark also.

Exactly. People are not robots who will bend to the 'laws of economy'. They are greedy greedy greedy and get all that they can for as long as they can, and wont give a crap if they're technically charging more. If someone will buy it from them, or HAS to buy it from them, they WILL sell it for that price.