If SE is taking away my hard work...

[viion]

Oh look this again. Let's sum this up shall we?

SE is not taking any wealth from anybody. They are redenominating.

Prices in 2.0 will drop drastically. That is inevitable. However it is just as foolish to say that they will balance at exactly 10% of what they are now as it is to say they will remain the same as current prices.

Nobody can say for a fact how prices will be in ARR. Any predictions are baseless as this point beyond prices dropping. Too much is changing in the game and the market will change drastically primarily due to these changes, not the redenomination.

If one is quitting because one can't comprehend what a redenomination is, and refuses to educate oneself, then godspeed.

You say they're not taking any wealth from anybody then state that prices will not balance to 10%, Anything over is a loss.

If prices balance at 30% but you've only got 10%, you are now 20% less wealthy from what you could purchase before.

I thought this was common sense...Also just as much as prices drop, prices will rise also, why do people INSIST on ignoring this? Prices rise now due to demand, with materias being 3-4 sometimes 5 times as much as their original price when out of demand.

People also seem to forget that a lot of people will be like "Oh shit i have no money!" and become greedy, selling high in order to recuperate what they lost during the reduction. Then as they dont sell they reduce slowly, but by the time it gets anywhere even near to 1/10th people will have earned much more and double/tripled/quadrupled their starting gil in that the wealth has increased and balanced out at a much higher rate than 1/10th, thus the higher rate is what is causing the LOSS. Its so basic............. lol.

[NoctisUmbra]

You say they're not taking any wealth from anybody then state that prices will not balance to 10%, Anything over is a loss.

If prices balance at 30% but you've only got 10%, you are now 20% less wealthy from what you could purchase before.

I thought this was common sense...Also just as much as prices drop, prices will rise also, why do people INSIST on ignoring this? Prices rise now due to demand, with materias being 3-4 sometimes 5 times as much as their original price when out of demand.

People also seem to forget that a lot of people will be like "Oh shit i have no money!" and become greedy, selling high in order to recuperate what they lost during the reduction. Then as they dont sell they reduce slowly, but by the time it gets anywhere even near to 1/10th people will have earned much more and double/tripled/quadrupled their starting gil in that the wealth has increased and balanced out at a much higher rate than 1/10th, thus the higher rate is what is causing the LOSS. Its so basic............. lol.

Incorrect.

Prices will not balance at 10% exactly, yes, however the reason behind that has little to do with the redenomination, and more to do with the fact that the game will be drastically different - namely crafting/gathering.

Essentially, if gil wasn't redenominated, prices would still fluctuate up and down by values of 20-30% or even more on some items anyway. Yoshi-P already pointed this out when he first announced the redenomination by mentioning how in ARR many items will be valued differently and suggesting people do not engage in future's trading by investing in certain materials or gear. Some things will gain value, others will lose.

Redenomination will only have a psychological impact at first, which is a minor impact compared to the above. In such a closed market, all it takes is for people who realize they aren't losing any gil by putting things up for any price just above 10% to do just that and they forcefully undercut anyone who wants to keep prices high.

So essentially, A being the redenomination and B being new DoH/L systems and item values, A and B are indepenant factors in ARR price balancing.

[viion]

Incorrect.

Prices will not balance at 10% exactly, yes, however the reason behind that has little to do with the redenomination, and more to do with the fact that the game will be drastically different - namely crafting/gathering.

Essentially, if gil wasn't redenominated, prices would still fluctuate up and down by values of 20-30% or even more on some items anyway. Yoshi-P already pointed this out when he first announced the redenomination by mentioning how in ARR many items will be valued differently and suggesting people do not engage in future's trading by investing in certain materials or gear. Some things will gain value, others will lose.

Redenomination will only have a psychological impact at first, which is a minor impact compared to the above. In such a closed market, all it takes is for people who realize they aren't losing any gil by putting things up for any price just above 10% to do just that and they forcefully undercut anyone who wants to keep prices high.

So essentially, A being the redenomination and B being new DoH/L systems and item values, A and B are indepenant factors in ARR price balancing.

Sorry but you are incorrect.

The game will be drastically different, but you, nore even Yoshi knows all the gil intake amounts. They miss things, we find ways to earn and such. Crafting/Gathering is infact a lot easier now, so I am not sure what you're talking about with this.

I feel like you're just going to try use redenomination as an excuse each time when it is irrelevant to user controlled situations.

Because what you are talking about in a real world situation would have affected all products and services, HERE IT IS NOT.

The price of X Sword in the Ward now will NOT be 1/10th in ARR, and it has HIGH chances it never will, There are so many arguments that prove this.

This effectively means that the balance out rate remainder will be the lost value of your gil.

It does not matter about HOW people get their Gil such, just know PEOPLE WILL.

If you go into ARR with 1m and in 1 month you make it to 2m,
Item at 10m goes to 5m but then goes to 3m before its being bought.

You before COULD buy it, but now its balanced out at 30% of its original value, thus you lost 20% of the value of your gil, but you can earn it back easily enough in that the balance out rate hits much faster than the reduction of the price of an item.

This is what you are not seeing, you are counting on the fact that people WILL be all nice and happy and sell stuff cheaper, you are counting on the fact that people some how think they will treasure their gil and disregarding that people NOW spend money on expensive stuff that causes 300-400% inflation of an item and they STILL purchase it for that amount.

And finally you're counting (or forgetting) on that fact that gil will be SO DIFFICULT to obtain that general wealth will not increase. If an items in general, take x time to go down, but in that x time the general wealth increases by a certain amount, the balance rate hits much higher.

You are all concentrating on the fact that things should deflate in price and ignoring inflation that balances it out. Undercutting will ONLY happen if there is a significant amount of that item, so it is a completely different parameter, look at some Materia lately, many will not be in lots of stock but the price went up and up and and up, in ARR it will go down and the "up" balances this out by reducing the amount it goes down to.

Everyone knows there is too much money in the economy, everyone has way to much, and this 10% reduction is a way of removing a lot of it and hiding it behind reasons, and then applying a much slower growth rate. But there is still that, a growth!. (this is a good thing that we're being rid of Gil). It seems a lot of people are trying to put fairy dust reasoning behind the "no loss" to deny the fact that you will be losing Gil. It may not be much, it may only be 20-30% loss, but its still a loss never the less.

[Ferth]

Sorry but you are incorrect.

The game will be drastically different, but you, nore even Yoshi knows all the gil intake amounts. They miss things, we find ways to earn and such. Crafting/Gathering is infact a lot easier now, so I am not sure what you're talking about with this.

I feel like you're just going to try use redenomination as an excuse each time when it is irrelevant to user controlled situations.

Because what you are talking about in a real world situation would have affected all products and services, HERE IT IS NOT.

The price of X Sword in the Ward now will NOT be 1/10th in ARR, and it has HIGH chances it never will, There are so many arguments that prove this.

This effectively means that the balance out rate remainder will be the lost value of your gil.

It does not matter about HOW people get their Gil such, just know PEOPLE WILL.

If you go into ARR with 1m and in 1 month you make it to 2m,
Item at 10m goes to 5m but then goes to 3m before its being bought.

You before COULD buy it, but now its balanced out at 30% of its original value, thus you lost 20% of the value of your gil, but you can earn it back easily enough in that the balance out rate hits much faster than the reduction of the price of an item.

This is what you are not seeing, you are counting on the fact that people WILL be all nice and happy and sell stuff cheaper, you are counting on the fact that people some how think they will treasure their gil and disregarding that people NOW spend money on expensive stuff that causes 300-400% inflation of an item and they STILL purchase it for that amount.

You are all concentrating on the fact that things should deflate in price and ignoring inflation that balances it out. Undercutting will ONLY happen if there is a significant amount of that item, so it is a completely different parameter, look at some Materia lately, many will not be in lots of stock but the price went up and up and and up, in ARR it will go down and the "up" balances this out by reducing the amount it goes down to.

I'm sorry... I can't seriously debate this with you because you aren't representing any real data. Your argument is basically "people are jerks, and shit will be expensive."

But economics doesn't work that way. The only way for items to remain at inflated prices would be for one entity to have sole control over it's pricing. But since many people will be out there trying to sell their items the prices will stabilize at a reasonable price over time.

That price might not be exactly 1/10th but the fear that it will be exorbitant in relative terms is unjustified. Prices are going to fluctuate regardless of redenomination. Hell, they are fluctuating right now and the redenomination hasn't even happened yet. Markets change. Prices fluctuate based on the supply of a given item compared to the demand for it.

You are arguing from a standpoint as if you are being robbed but you aren't. No one is. BECAUSE WE WILL ALL HAVE THE SAME RELATIVE WEALTH WE HAD BEFORE THE REDENOMINATION. That doesn't mean I think prices are going to be absolutely the same relative to the new wealth... I can't even guarantee prices will be the same tomorrow as they are today.

[ShellQ8]

So.. by your logic, and the logic of every genius who thinks he/she can sell stuff with the same price.

If SE had done the opposite, and multiplied everything by 10, would you have been happier?
Would you go "Awesome!!! Now I'm rich and all my hard work got multiplied!"?
Would those geniuses sell their stuff with the same price? No, they will add a "0", because it's the normal thing to do. Because nothing has changed, just an additional "0" to everything.

And the same thing goes for (taking away a "0") nothing changes. I actually like it, it gives more value to the Gil. People will actually feel "Rich" when they have a million, because it won't be as easy to gain, and it won't disappear as quickly as the current million gils.

It seems more logical to me for a "Rusty Needle" to be sold for 43 gils rather than 432 gils, and for a weathered gladius to be sold for 60 gils rather than 600 gils. I know it's just numbers, but for a starting weapon, it doesn't seem right to have 4 or 3 figures.

[Ingolf]

But guys, I earned my money.

SE are thieves.

[sdegrazi]

all this economics... makes my head hurt

[NoctisUmbra]

Your argument is like saying that any time SE patched content thus far that in some way effected the supply rate or value of a widely-used item, they stole your gil.

My mentioning crafting/gathering isn't about the ease of it. It's about fundamental changes to the way they function. How available will certain mats be with the new gathering mini game? How difficult will it be to craft HQ items? How will materia conversion rates be rebalanced? They are being rebalanced btw.

These are drastically effecting the prices.

If SE simply redenominated like they said tomorrow, changing nothing else in the current version, the smartest people would be the ones dropping their prices to about 15-25% and enjoying increased profits while people struggle for a few days to get over the psychological effect of lower numbers. This would no doubt last only a few days, as others undercut them and so on so forth until they get to 10% and stop, because going lower means loss and anything higher means gain.

The economy in this video game is an incredibly dumbed down version of real life where supply/demand is paramount in the workings of all prices.

[NoctisUmbra]

To sum up PV's post;

Gil is currently losing value steadily due to inflation.
The redenomination will increase the value of gil drastically, but inflation will continue to steadily lower it.
Oh, also, people are jerks so they won't let you use your gil at it's new high value until inflation has already lowered it a bit.

Edit: Ferth, your sig basically says it right. Separating those 2 independent points seems to be the most significant obstacle for people to get past.

[viion]

I'm sorry... I can't seriously debate this with you because you aren't representing any real data. Your argument is basically "people are jerks, and shit will be expensive."

But economics doesn't work that way. The only way for items to remain at inflated prices would be for one entity to have sole control over it's pricing. But since many people will be out there trying to sell their items the prices will stabilize at a reasonable price over time.

That price might not be exactly 1/10th but the fear that it will be exorbitant in relative terms is unjustified. Prices are going to fluctuate regardless of redenomination. Hell, they are fluctuating right now and the redenomination hasn't even happened yet. Markets change. Prices fluctuate based on the supply of a given item compared to the demand for it.

You are arguing from a standpoint as if you are being robbed but you aren't. No one is. BECAUSE WE WILL ALL HAVE THE SAME RELATIVE WEALTH WE HAD BEFORE THE REDENOMINATION. That doesn't mean I think prices are going to be absolutely the same relative to the new wealth... I can't even guarantee prices will be the same tomorrow as they are today.

If you can't debate then your fault, I am telling you why you're wrong just like you think I am wrong, you are not representing any real data, you argument is basically "people are nice and will treat the game with farinesses". If you want to look at it with a blind eye like that.

You clearly state

That price might not be exactly 1/10th

and what I am saying is, if they do not,ANYTHING OVER is a loss. You cant deny that, its impossible im sorry lol. If an item becomes 11% its value, you have LOST ONE PERCENT of wealth, that is fact. That is your real data.

I am not at all saying I am being robbed, by this I can clearly see you're being a complete arrogant jerk because if you read my post you'd see I agree we losing money, I am happy we are and I think its the right thing to do.

It does not matter that everyones wealth is reduced when wealth is only determined by the economic pricing. If your wealth reduce by 90% but global pricing reduces 50%, you are 40% LESS WEALTHY, EVERYONE IS.

And you can argue all day long that prices will reduce but there is a force against that, its called inflation, I am just repeating myself here and you're too arrogant to listen to it and you think prices will keep dropping and no one will earn any gil so their gil value will stay the same, reading about redenomination on wiki doesn't make it fit the purpose.

To sum up PV's post;

Gil is currently losing value steadily due to inflation.
The redenomination will increase the value of gil drastically, but inflation will continue to steadily lower it.
Oh, also, people are jerks so they won't let you use your gil at it's new high value until inflation has already lowered it a bit.

Edit: Ferth, your sig basically says it right. Separating those 2 independent points seems to be the most significant obstacle for people to get past.

You are missing the point, don't be a jackass, I am not saying people jerks, I am saying old habits die hard, people inflate to skyrocket now, and people do things that isnt all fair, EG "You wont be banned for garuda exploit" *everyone exploits it!* and countless other exploits that got patched and people did it anyway because the world is not all fair gain, people will wait their money back from this reduction.

You are losing money, accept that, accept that its a good thing for the game.

To anyone even thinking about conversion rates, PLEASE take your USD and go to a european country (Euros), see how far it takes you and realise how non-wealthy you will be. Conversion rate is meaningless argument.

@Ferth
Your signature also is full of nonsense because it states everyone moving in will have same wealth then you go "well it will take time for the market to stabilize", hang on then, you're saying everyone has same wealth at the start when the market will have not even stabilized to that wealth? So contradictory...

If you can't argue your point, then i don't even know why you're on a forum, just wait until ARR and we will come back and see where the economy is by taking a series of items and seeing what their price reduction ended up being (even a month into game if that makes you feel better...)