"Revamped" Rewards System

[TimonLoon]

Striders, Ochiudos Kotes, Cassie/Astral Earrings, Fuma Kyahan (arguable), Peacock Charm, Haubergeon (59 but best thing for a lot of DDs), ACC rings to name a few.

[NefGP]

Striders, Ochiudos Kotes, Cassie/Astral Earrings, Fuma Kyahan (arguable), Peacock Charm, Haubergeon (59 but best thing for a lot of DDs), ACC rings to name a few.

all of those items eventually got replaced with better gear, FYI. How long did you play XI for, because I played pretty much from launch until shortly after the lv 95 patch.


And as I noted, it XI took it to the extreme in some cases, but there's no reason to just throw stuff out for new items, at least within the same level range! Again, with Garuda vs Ifrit - they're both Primals, so why should one's stuff be better than the other's ? I for one really enjoyed how XI gave you multiple choices for gear.

However XI also had gear swapping, which was a bit part of the problem when it came to carrying multiple sets for a single job. XIV doesn't have that issue, as we can't swap our stuff during combat. I think the devs have been largely good about creating gear that works well, I just don't care to see new content automatically obsolete the old content, particularly when the items offered are within the same level range.

A better approach to the primals would be to have all the weapons on equal footing, but with a different flavor - Ifrit focusing on high damage/attack, Garuda on speed, Ramuh on critical hits & Titan on... well, they're weapons so defense doesn't really fit lol, maybe increase to primary attributes? I dunno, but the point is there's no reason for 1 set to be strictly better than the other.

[TimonLoon]

all of those items eventually got replaced with better gear, FYI. How long did you play XI for, because I played pretty much from launch until shortly after the lv 95 patch.

Some of the gear I mentioned was top tier for years. Some of them even after ToAU expansion.

The two major primals were released almost a full year apart.... You're damn right that gear better be better than the previous one to justify even bothering with that content.

[Almalexia]

If they released, say, two primals in the same timeframe, then it would make sense that the weapons were comparable in power. This was the case with Moogle and Ifrit: you could have picked ACC or ATK (nevermind that ACC was a junk stat at the time).

But Ifrit and Moogle were 2011 models. Come 2012, the new models should distance themselves from the old more than being a mere alternative or sidegrade. Second Lieutenant and Garuda are comparable in power amongst themselves, but better than Ifrit and Moogle. At the same time, Ifrit and Moogle have alternative value in the form of GC seals, which you can then invest into purchasing an SL weapon. This trend should continue as new content is released.

[Aenarion]

If they released, say, two primals in the same timeframe, then it would make sense that the weapons were comparable in power. This was the case with Moogle and Ifrit: you could have picked ACC or ATK (nevermind that ACC was a junk stat at the time).

But Ifrit and Moogle were 2011 models. Come 2012, the new models should distance themselves from the old more than being a mere alternative or sidegrade. Second Lieutenant and Garuda are comparable in power amongst themselves, but better than Ifrit and Moogle. At the same time, Ifrit and Moogle have alternative value in the form of GC seals, which you can then invest into purchasing an SL weapon. This trend should continue as new content is released.

As NefGP and mbncd have been saying, powercreep for the sake of powercreep is usually not a good idea, especially if you look at long term sustainability.

[SwordCoheir]

As NefGP and mbncd have been saying, powercreep for the sake of powercreep is usually not a good idea, especially if you look at long term sustainability.

Aye, that's alot of the reason FFXI is in the crapper right now, because after they went above the 75 cap which had been in play for almost 8 years the power creep from stats/gear just went out of control in comparison to content.

But in any case, if SE does it right they will follow their plan to eventually phase out content and gear out of the game, the new gear doesn't have to creep to be relevant because people who missed out on the last content will have something similar to work for. Just my opinion on it though.

[NefGP]

So because the Primals aren't all released at the same time, that's your basis for not keeping them on equal footing with one another? That's a pretty weak argument.

Furthermore, they are dramatically changing combat in ARR, as well as the Primal fights themselves quite likely. Sadly, I don't expect the trend to change, as we've been told that SMN and the level cap increase will be in the first major patch after launch. As such, I'm betting Titan will be 55~60 battle and drop corresponding weapons for those ranges, even though all of this conflicts with the game's lore and as I said, kills incentive to do the older content.

I prefer to think of trading the drops in for seals as a way of giving people incentive to help others do the content, rather than just as a petty bonus for when you find something better to use. I'm a little surprised you wouldn't be more supportive, as someone who attained both Spharai and Glanzfaust (which I remember you were horribly disappointed with at the time).

Sorry but I won't be convinced otherwise - newer doesn't have to automatically = better when the items in question are within the same level range. Tanaka had it right when they tried to keep everything comparably good, so that players who maybe wanted an item but didn't care for the content to get it, could do something else to obtain a similarly good item.

[Almalexia]

So because the Primals aren't all released at the same time, that's your basis for not keeping them on equal footing with one another? That's a pretty weak argument.

Primals were an example, but it could be any piece of content. Compare DH and AV/CC: the rewards have strikingly different potency for content released over a year apart. For an average person subscribing to an MMO, a 1 year or 1.5 years seems to me a reasonable amount of time for "repeat content" to exist before something offers a greater challenge and a statistically superior reward.

Keep in mind I am talking about rewards, not reward structures. Grinding Dynamis for 3 years without a RDM hat has no effect on the properties of the hat.

I prefer to think of trading the drops in for seals as a way of giving people incentive to help others do the content, rather than just as a petty bonus for when you find something better to use. I'm a little surprised you wouldn't be more supportive, as someone who attained both Spharai and Glanzfaust (which I remember you were horribly disappointed with at the time).

That's my point. Glanzfaust underperformed because SE was afraid of making something that challenged 5 year-old content. The silly thing was how Glanzfaust gave the same statistical bonuses as Spharai--ATK/Counter--but connected them to your JAs instead of the weapon itself. It wasn't an alternative or a sidegrade; it was definitely worse.

Seals are just one way to repurpose content. Materia is another--primal weapons yield unique materia. There are surely a dozen ways to repurpose older content without holding back the advancement of new gear.

Sorry but I won't be convinced otherwise - newer doesn't have to automatically = better when the items in question are within the same level range. Tanaka had it right when they tried to keep everything comparably good, so that players who maybe wanted an item but didn't care for the content to get it, could do something else to obtain a similarly good item.

Newer doesn't necessarily have to mean better, but I think in the long term there will come a time when all of the alternatives and incremental sidegrides aren't cutting the mustard. There can be an equal measure of sidegrade to existing gear (Skirmish, for example) and more powerful gear, but the point I am driving is how there ought to be more powerful gear over time so that character growth isn't an imaginary or geologically slow progression like FFXI.

Aye, that's alot of the reason FFXI is in the crapper right now, because after they went above the 75 cap which had been in play for almost 8 years the power creep from stats/gear just went out of control in comparison to content.

Was it really lv.76+ gear that broke FFXI? I am pretty sure it was the damage calculations that depend so heavily on level difference.

Besides, FFXI's endgame foundation was sidegrades. Of course things got screwed up once they raised the bar after 8 years. FFXIV is starting fresh. FFXIV already has a primitive system of old gear = redemption items, new gear = more powerful at a one year turnover and I don't foresee any creeping at this rate.

[NefGP]

Primals were an example, but it could be any piece of content. Compare DH and AV/CC: the rewards have strikingly different potency for content released over a year apart. For an average person subscribing to an MMO, a 1 year or 1.5 years seems to me a reasonable amount of time for "repeat content" to exist before something offers a greater challenge and a statistically superior reward.

Keep in mind I am talking about rewards, not reward structures. Grinding Dynamis for 3 years without a RDM hat has no effect on the properties of the hat.


That's my point. Glanzfaust underperformed because SE was afraid of making something that challenged 5 year-old content. The silly thing was how Glanzfaust gave the same statistical bonuses as Spharai--ATK/Counter--but connected them to your JAs instead of the weapon itself. It wasn't an alternative or a sidegrade; it was definitely worse.

Seals are just one way to repurpose content. Materia is another--primal weapons yield unique materia. There are surely a dozen ways to repurpose older content without holding back the advancement of new gear.


Newer doesn't necessarily have to mean better, but I think in the long term there will come a time when all of the alternatives and incremental sidegrides aren't cutting the mustard. There can be an equal measure of sidegrade to existing gear (Skirmish, for example) and more powerful gear, but the point I am driving is how there ought to be more powerful gear over time so that character growth isn't an imaginary or geologically slow progression like FFXI.


Was it really lv.76+ gear that broke FFXI? I am pretty sure it was the damage calculations that depend so heavily on level difference.

Besides, FFXI's endgame foundation was sidegrades. Of course things got screwed up once they raised the bar after 8 years. FFXIV is starting fresh. FFXIV already has a primitive system of old gear = redemption items, new gear = more powerful at a one year turnover and I don't foresee any creeping at this rate.

I agree with you that the Mythics were largely disappointing, especially when they required far more effort than relics (however the current 99 versions are just insane, but that's hardly justification) however that doesn't mean the concept was wrong - just because something was implemented poorly, doesn't mean the idea itself was flawed.

I never said I was completely against introducing better gear - I just feel there needs to be a balance, and the whole emphasis on DPS as the main stat to look for on a weapon is counter-intuitive and even potentially destructive. I really can't fathom why the dev team opted to go that route as opposed to adjusting specific subskills to account for use on other classes/jobs. They did it fairly well in XI (such as meditate being reduced when used by non-SAM or ustusemi Ni only being 4 shadows for NIN main).

Again, I only single out Ifrit vs Garuda because IMO the Primals should all have equally attractive gear, with their elemental affinities offering different styles. Again look at XI - all the avatars offered a wide variety of things, but they were largely equal in terms of reward (at least the first 6 were anyway.)

As others have said, I just don't want to constantly be chasing after the newest items and completely ignore older content. There needs to be sidegrading, but to a degree. I think we both agree that XI took it to the extreme with 3 expansions across 5+ years before a level cap increase. That was insanity.

A way to upgrade the older gear might be cool as well - this is party why I suggested allowing melds on Rare/EX gear (only 1 mind you) and so that's 1 possible method - or they could introduce quests to get better/updated versions. The Primal Weapons are all really, really cool and are such a bitch to get, I hate to just toss them aside (even for a Relic) just because something better came along.

Not that I'd use one for anything other than cosmetics if I did get a Relic, but still ^^

Also, again speaking of which, according to Yoshi even Relics aren't safe... that we will see various "Relic" class weapons. If that's not a kick in the pants to anyone who's done that quest, I don't know what is.


I wouldn't mind seeing an updated version of Magian Trials in ARR - just, hopefully far less tedious than they were in XI.


Personally I think what finally did XI in was Tanaka coming back lol... after he took off and left the game in Matsui's hands, we got Abyssea, which was just so much fun... and then we went back to old-school dev shenanigans, but with a new level cap and it all just kinda fell apart.

Besides, it's pretty hard to come down from a high like that. Atma was just too much fun.

[Shougun]

Would be cool that if you took your primal weapon from a lower (easier primal) and either fought a higher difficulty or higher tier primal you could unlock an upgraded version of that weapon.

So Ifrit wep -> fight Ifrit hard(er) mode -> get a upgraded Ifrit weapon.
or take Ifrit weapon, go kill higher tier primal (like Garuda) get upgraded Ifrit weapon.

I would like to see primal weapons be similar in power (when they are similar in difficulty to acquire).