Is the "Point Allotment" system necessary at all?

[Ladon]

Ability/passive equip systems are a good idea as well. Having 4 bars full of abilities is distracting and counter productive to creating a functional strategy without using many addons or macros. (I realize you didn't mention active spells - but I wanted to add that in there since I felt they are easy to talk about at once)

I would be interested to hearing such a system - GW1/2, Diablo 3, are obvious examples of this system (for active abilities).

While D3 failed to make as many builds as it wanted*to make, it -did- make a couple builds quite viable even end game. Which is exciting - as it is now the only builds you get to do in FFXIV are item builds.

* D3 has had a recent patch to buff unused skills to make even more viable builds - haven't checked it out if it is true, but its good news for those who are still playing.

Obviously passives would be easier for the dev team to come up with - and still maintain a fairly FF feel. And if they did active selections like the above games did then they would have to greatly increase spell count for each class - which would probably feel less FF unless you were a blue mage.

(Passives are a lot like perks however, just able to switch them in and out easily unlike say WoW - though you may in D3)

Oh man an assignable passive ability system would be awesome. Make it character wide and you start off with a few slots and can expand the amount of slots via quests. Then they could do all kinds of things here. Passive ability reward for quests or from seasonal events. Heck they could even do something were you could learn the passive ability from AF and other equipment say via spirit bonding and then it becomes an equipable passive skill that could be used under any job you have.

Something like that could really make character customization meaningful.

[NefGP]

Well, when I first heard about the armory system I was honestly hoping for something close to FFT's system, where you selected 1 job, picked the actions of another, and then had 3 different categories for passives. Tanaka & Komoto had originally intended for us to more or less create our own jobs, using the classes as templates. In that regard, I'm still a little sad about how things turned out.

Besides, as much as I'd love it, it'd be way too ridiculous to pick and choose what passives you got... I would love to take ARC's Accuracy & Crit Accuracy traits and slap them onto MRD.

[Yellow]

Don't make the game easier, just tell me where to put my useless stats and a re-assign button in case I mess up.

Kidding, honestly, but two points here:
- While I can't promise this of Cataclysm, truly strategy-capping Wrath especially among certain classes has the most mathematical complexity the MMORPG world has probably seen. It becomes a science, and your body sure as heck better become a very well-running machine. That has little use in post-nerf, but low-manning a heroic raid... that's a different story.
- Be it perks or stats, it's just a system in place to fill a function. Flat, unchanging stats fill two: mild playstyle modification (even less in FFXIV), and, more importantly, gear-tiering and gear-hunting both.

Just as a random example, you really could basically just take the whole of your gear's stats as a single resource... say 'materium', and balance those points however you like in your allotment menu. I think I'll be a speed-accuracy glass cannon this run... And so you become. Problem: gear-hunting is lost, since only the increasing tier-values remain.

My point here is that the mechanics, and the conventions using them, can change at almost any time. It just takes an idea, whether the idea fits the functions, and the likelihood of a positive response.

Perks do not necessarily mean easy. Points do not necessarily mean "hardcore".

Wut.

Because we really need SE to create another system that's completely redundant x)

I... never said points = hardcore... you're just making wild assumptions.


I just said points are pretty useless now, let's make them more useful.... and perks just sound stupid.

I can't tell whether you read what I wrote.. or if you just forgot about everything and developed some argument against something that didn't exist.

Oh well I had a laugh <3

Who said perks make the game easier? That is an assumed fallacy.

End game WoW is actually extremely involved. Just because you hate it (I dont like WoW either) doesnt mean you can make up myths about it.

And re-assign button to stats is silly when you say no to a talent system - you say I want choices to matter and I want to be able to reassign them. But dont make it like WoW, where choices matter and you can reassign them.

Stats are perks that are more boring - and usually have less build options.

If you haven't played an MMORPG with perks.. then how can you say what I'm saying is false?

Perks were made to make the game easier.. seriously that's why they're in WoW. Bonus experience? Bonus gold? Faster mount movement? and in some cases higher drop rates?

These are the things you're bound to find in perks... if they aren't what you want.. then you don't want perks but something else ^^;

[Shougun]

If you haven't played an MMORPG with perks.. then how can you say what I'm saying is false?

Perks were made to make the game easier.. seriously that's why they're in WoW. Bonus experience? Bonus gold? Faster mount movement? and in some cases higher drop rates?

These are the things you're bound to find in perks... if they aren't what you want.. then you don't want perks but something else ^^;

Ive played an mmo with perks.. You still get your ass stomped on by end game bosses. There is no single perk combination that will let you rofl stomp the end current game stuff in WoW or D3 (not including exploits or bugs).

Sure they enhance your character - but it doesnt make it easier or harder just adds an element of uniqueness* - expect for bad combinations. Why? Because the game is designed around the perks - the level of difficulty is not based around no perk characters.

*WoW devs admit there are very particular builds for each class and thats why they redid their talent system
*D3 had a few viable builds for each character - the recent patch has added more.

Its like saying armor makes the game easy so we shouldnt have it.

... ... ... the game was designed around armor of course its harder to fight Garuda naked - you werent meant to do that, you were meant to fight her clothed and it still be a challenge (excluding god melded gear :P ).

[Venat]

Well Actually I think my system is completely fine it just needs Group1,Group2,Group3 save slots for each job. Same way your actions are saved in your action menu. Saving few traits as a group would seem fine. Also cant change during combat.

[Shurrikhan]

Wut.

Because we really need SE to create another system that's completely redundant x)

"Just as a random example" is hardly what I'd call suggesting the creation of another system. Nor did I actually advocate perks. My point was that any system (be it stats, skill-trees, or perks) can fill a function as long as the surrounding systems of enough quality. The discussion on alternative systems simply came up because it seemed impossible to make "stats become more significant in what they change" when stats in general change fairly little as they've been done in FFXIV.

I... never said points = hardcore... you're just making wild assumptions.

Never said you did. I was merely continuing an example. My point was, again, that any system can do just about anything depending on how it's made. There's nothing in a perk system (especially one made for combat, as we're talking about alternatives for stats [combat-centric] here) that says it has to be reduced to non-combat bonuses like mount speed and drop rates. That has only to do with the company who... wanted to put non-combat bonuses in there.


***
While perks in some games may be along the lines of "auxillery" benefits, I think most people would simply define a "perk system" as one that is neither aggregate (like stats), nor requiring contingent choices (like skill-trees). In other words, relatively few selections, each significant -- very accessible, fairly reactive. That may be the large part of how we're seeing this differently.

[Shurrikhan]

Tanaka & Komoto had originally intended for us to more or less create our own jobs, using the classes as templates. In that regard, I'm still a little sad about how things turned out.

I wanted to see this done right... so... much. :_(

[Duelle]

I wanted to see this done right... so... much. :_(

Go read up on The Secret World. Its progression system is a slightly watered down version of what NefGP mentioned. Down to the "create your own class" with the way Decks have been implemented.