If someone makes a deadly boss mods type addon for ARR would you use it?

[Preypacer]

This sums up your entire post as you pretty much responded to nothing I even wrote.

lol I thought the same thing.

"I require add-ons to defeat high end raid bosses. Why? 'cause I'm a pro raider".

lol.. what the hell is gaming culture coming to when needing add-ons to complete content qualifies as "pro-level". That bar just gets ever lower.

It's right up there with how people who require specific party setups, with specific character builds using specific strategies and specific add-ons in order to succeed at something, or they fall on their face, telling others to "learn how to play". The correct statement should be "Learn how to follow cookie-cutter guides to the letter, and use addons, 'cause I can't succeed otherwise. I'm too lazy and impatient to put in the effort of learning the fight through trial and error". That's all it boils down to.

The ones who actually know the game are those who understand the game mechanics well enough to make a variety of setups work, even when the "optimal everything" isn't feasible. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a group disband before it even started because the setup wasn't exactly 100% "what the guides say to do".

Of course MMO encounters had to get harder with add-ons available. They're supposed to be a challenge. The addons exist for the same reasons walkthrough guides and cookie-cutter templates do: To make "winning" in the game as easy as possible. When people are resorting to the above to defeat content, the developers kinda have to make the encounters more difficult, or it becomes a cake walk, and you end up with people complaining about "content being too easy".

How about just playing the damn game and learning encounters by paying attention and good old-fashioned trial and error?

Add-ons are a crutch. Not a necessity. The moment you concede requiring add-ons to complete content, in my opinion, you forfeit the right to associate yourself as "pro", or "expert" or "elite" anything. You definitely forfeit the right to tell anyone else to "learn to play".

[fusional]

"I require add-ons to defeat high end raid bosses. Why? 'cause I'm a pro raider"

can you quote where i've said that? oh right, no, i didn't say that. that's just your attempt at misrepresenting my position (straw man) to bolster your otherwise baseless argument.

but do you really really want to get into what we have and haven't done in this game without mods? i have a strong feeling it's going to backfire and make your argument look really, really silly. but we can do that dance if you like.

WHAT? HOW DID A FUSIONAL POST GET QUOTED IN HERE?!?! MY BRAIN (or heart) JACKED MY KEYBOARD!

ohhi. fancy meeting you here ;3

[Preypacer]

can you quote where i've said that? oh right, no, i didn't say that. that's just your attempt at misrepresenting my position (straw man) to bolster your otherwise baseless argument.

No, actually it's not a strawman. I wasn't quoting you directly. I was, however, addressing the overall tone of your post. Specifically this part:
"the best raiders are the ones who come prepared. that means having the right tools to analyze and parse the battle and your performance in it, and the right tools to improve/enhance your personal performance in it."

You're referring to "the best raiders" as being the ones who use addons... what you refer to as "tools" (euphemisms, euphemisms). In short, you're stating that the best raiders use addons. I find that to be completely laughable for all the reasons I outline in my response. If requiring addons (or guides or templates) to succeed at a fight makes one a "best raider", then the word "best" doesn't mean a whole lot.

If someone wants to say "I use addons to make winning the fight a bit easier or more manageable", then fine. That's a valid reason. But to say "I use addons because I'm one of the best raiders" is a pathetic case of self-delusion.

Speaking of strawmen, though, the latter half of that post I responded to is pretty much comprised of them. Maybe you should review your own remarks before attempting to criticize others, yes?

[Madruk]

lol I thought the same thing.

"I require add-ons to defeat high end raid bosses. Why? 'cause I'm a pro raider".

lol.. what the hell is gaming culture coming to when needing add-ons to complete content qualifies as "pro-level". That bar just gets ever lower.

It's right up there with how people who require specific party setups, with specific character builds using specific strategies and specific add-ons in order to succeed at something, or they fall on their face, telling others to "learn how to play". The correct statement should be "Learn how to follow cookie-cutter guides to the letter, and use addons, 'cause I can't succeed otherwise. I'm too lazy and impatient to put in the effort of learning the fight through trial and error". That's all it boils down to.

The ones who actually know the game are those who understand the game mechanics well enough to make a variety of setups work, even when the "optimal everything" isn't feasible. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a group disband before it even started because the setup wasn't exactly 100% "what the guides say to do".

Of course MMO encounters had to get harder with add-ons available. They're supposed to be a challenge. The addons exist for the same reasons walkthrough guides and cookie-cutter templates do: To make "winning" in the game as easy as possible. When people are resorting to the above to defeat content, the developers kinda have to make the encounters more difficult, or it becomes a cake walk, and you end up with people complaining about "content being too easy".

How about just playing the damn game and learning encounters by paying attention and good old-fashioned trial and error?

Add-ons are a crutch. Not a necessity. The moment you concede requiring add-ons to complete content, in my opinion, you forfeit the right to associate yourself as "pro", or "expert" or "elite" anything. You definitely forfeit the right to tell anyone else to "learn to play".

Once you've beaten something, that initial woopty-do rush is over and it boils down to farming. Once that happens yeah people don't want to spend the hours they initially did relearning over and over with new and half assed setups. They want to get in there, get shit done as efficiently as possible, and get out.

That applies with or without mods, I thought this was obvious to anyone that's raided for any length of time. It seems like you're talking from a perspective of pick up raids/groups or something. Even then, it applies even more because if you're in a random group you definitely want to go with the tried and true vs. something new when you're more than likely never going to see those people again.

[Preypacer]

Once you've beaten something, that initial woopty-do rush is over and it boils down to farming. Once that happens yeah people don't want to spend the hours they initially did relearning over and over with new and half assed setups. They want to get in there, get shit done as efficiently as possible, and get out.

That applies with or without mods, I thought this was obvious to anyone that's raided for any length of time.

Except that those mods and addons (and so on) are mandatory by many raiding guilds for even the first attempt up to and including the win. It's not a "farm status" thing. It's a " first attempt and every one after" situation.

I've been in several such guilds and have known people in many more such guilds. I have never known of a guild who only used them for farming the raids.

I quite clearly remember being told that, without exception, everyone *had* to have a specific list of add-ons installed for the first attempt of a raid, else they didn't go. In one guild you had to post a screenshot to prove you had the "required setup". Everyone was also required to read the strategy and have it open on their computer or on a hand-held if possible.

I've been around the MMO block a few too many times to believe it's "farming only".

People rely on add-ons as a crutch because they want the win to be as easy as possible, with as little personal effort as possible. They are not ever necessary.

[Madruk]

XIV-only players never raided. So it's not obvious for people in here

The point of wanting to get things done efficiently still stands in XIV, even more so because of the retarded way loot drops are designed. Would you rather do 500 15 min dungeon runs or 500 45 minute ones? I know the answer most would pick. Is that being lazy? Nope, that's making efficient use of your time.

People rely on add-ons as a crutch because they want the win to be as easy as possible, with as little personal effort as possible. They are not ever necessary.

You can't really blame the player, blame the games design. Like mentioned above alot of WoW's raid game was designed with the mods in mind. I'm not a huge advocate of covering your entire screen with mods so that you're basically playing whack-a-mole, but lumping everyone together as lazy or incompetent because the game itself requires you to use them to progress is pointless. WoW is pretty much the only game I raided where mod's were an essential requirement.

[Deakka]

Except that those mods and addons (and so on) are mandatory by many raiding guilds for even the first attempt up to and including the win. It's not a "farm status" thing. It's a " first attempt and every one after" situation.

I've been in several such guilds and have known people in many more such guilds. I have never known of a guild who only used them for farming the raids.

I quite clearly remember being told that, without exception, everyone *had* to have a specific list of add-ons installed for the first attempt of a raid, else they didn't go. In one guild you had to post a screenshot to prove you had the "required setup". Everyone was also required to read the strategy and have it open on their computer or on a hand-held if possible.

I've been around the MMO block a few too many times to believe it's "farming only".

People rely on add-ons as a crutch because they want the win to be as easy as possible, with as little personal effort as possible. They are not ever necessary.

If you've been around the block a few times, then you know this is "par for the course" in a raiding guild. While it's a bit more extreme than most (most would simply use tools within the specific addon to see who is running it and whose version is out of date. Screenshots are a bit excessive), you knowingly signed up for it. If you prefer to be a purist, create your own guild that does the opposite. Just realize you're going to be ridiculed if you attempt to throw out the "l3373r than thou" attitude among bleeding edge raiders.

By the way, I'd love to hear your vent/mumble during a boss attempt. Apparently it would be silent as a lamb with all the pro players. If it's like any normal ls, it's full of "Holy fuck move", "That's bullshit, I totally moved", "Argh, I herped, sorry", and "DEAR GOD WHY AREN'T YOU MOVING OUT OF THE WAY". All DBM does is save the raid leader's voice during progression attempts, or rather, reduce the strain (from personal experience, there will always be "that guy" who will do the exact opposite of his role in a fight, no matter what.... from here to eternity).