[dev1008] About Jumping

[Focant]

Mmm... I'm sorry I kinda zoned out reading some of the responses. Though, someone mentioned jumping opening new game design avenues and such, which I'll respond to. D:

This ties in a bit with my previous post, but XIV handles a bit differently than other mmos out there, and tends to focus on other styles of play. Other games like WoW incorporate jumping into the gameplay by, as someone mentioned, using it to avoid attacks, solve platforming puzzles, and the like, something XIV isn't really built to do. While there is nothing necessarily stopping XIV from doing something similar, a lot about the way the game handles would need to be altered. The game world isn't very conducive to free-form jumping and a lot of the timing mechanics have to do with ability activation instead. It's not the kind of game that promotes platforming.

I'm having a bit of trouble exactly describing what I mean so... as an analogy, it'd be like adding platforming elements to an rts game. XIV would probably be much better off adding new gameplay features and complexity elements in other areas. Improving inter-player communication and cooperation, ability timing, expanding on the limb targeting mechanic, etc. While jumping in some games adds a level of depth, it'd be nothing more than a gimmick in XIV, since the game's philosophy doesn't appear to put a lot of emphasis on movement and more on placement and timing.

The idea of expanding gameplay so that new events and such can be created is a good one and should definitely be looked into. However, jumping doesn't seem, in my mind, to be the proper vehicle for that trip. XIV isn't a fast paced, platformer style mmo like a lot of others out there. It's slower paced and likes to put more emphasis on timing and combos.

Might have been a bit hard to follow what I said lol. I'm having trouble thinking straight at the moment, so forgive me if that didn't come out very clearly.

Oh right, one last point. I think jumping would be fine but only in a confined way. Free-form jumping wouldn't mesh well with the game. Specific trigger points, abilities that are defensive in nature and respond to certain attacks by jumping, and the like I think would be fine. Having the space bar make you jump whenever you feel like it however, ultimately, wouldn't add any amount of depth. =/

[Kimahri]

Mmm... I'm sorry I kinda zoned out reading some of the responses. Though, someone mentioned jumping opening new game design avenues and such, which I'll respond to. D:

This ties in a bit with my previous post, but XIV handles a bit differently than other mmos out there, and tends to focus on other styles of play. Other games like WoW incorporate jumping into the gameplay by, as someone mentioned, using it to avoid attacks, solve platforming puzzles, and the like, something XIV isn't really built to do. While there is nothing necessarily stopping XIV from doing something similar, a lot about the way the game handles would need to be altered. The game world isn't very conducive to free-form jumping and a lot of the timing mechanics have to do with ability activation instead. It's not the kind of game that promotes platforming.

I'm having a bit of trouble exactly describing what I mean so... as an analogy, it'd be like adding platforming elements to an rts game. XIV would probably be much better off adding new gameplay features and complexity elements in other areas. Improving inter-player communication and cooperation, ability timing, expanding on the limb targeting mechanic, etc. While jumping in some games adds a level of depth, it'd be nothing more than a gimmick in XIV, since the game's philosophy doesn't appear to put a lot of emphasis on movement and more on placement and timing.

The idea of expanding gameplay so that new events and such can be created is a good one and should definitely be looked into. However, jumping doesn't seem, in my mind, to be the proper vehicle for that trip. XIV isn't a fast paced, platformer style mmo like a lot of others out there. It's slower paced and likes to put more emphasis on timing and combos.

Might have been a bit hard to follow what I said lol. I'm having trouble thinking straight at the moment, so forgive me if that didn't come out very clearly.

Oh right, one last point. I think jumping would be fine but only in a confined way. Free-form jumping wouldn't mesh well with the game. Specific trigger points, abilities that are defensive in nature and respond to certain attacks by jumping, and the like I think would be fine. Having the space bar make you jump whenever you feel like it however, ultimately, wouldn't add any amount of depth. =/

Thank you. Case closed! Jumping adds no depth and no purpose other than a collision detection model.

[gifthorse]

Mmm... I'm sorry I kinda zoned out reading some of the responses. Though, someone mentioned jumping opening new game design avenues and such, which I'll respond to. D:

This ties in a bit with my previous post, but XIV handles a bit differently than other mmos out there, and tends to focus on other styles of play. Other games like WoW incorporate jumping into the gameplay by, as someone mentioned, using it to avoid attacks, solve platforming puzzles, and the like, something XIV isn't really built to do. While there is nothing necessarily stopping XIV from doing something similar, a lot about the way the game handles would need to be altered. The game world isn't very conducive to free-form jumping and a lot of the timing mechanics have to do with ability activation instead. It's not the kind of game that promotes platforming.

I'm having a bit of trouble exactly describing what I mean so... as an analogy, it'd be like adding platforming elements to an rts game. XIV would probably be much better off adding new gameplay features and complexity elements in other areas. Improving inter-player communication and cooperation, ability timing, expanding on the limb targeting mechanic, etc. While jumping in some games adds a level of depth, it'd be nothing more than a gimmick in XIV, since the game's philosophy doesn't appear to put a lot of emphasis on movement and more on placement and timing.

The idea of expanding gameplay so that new events and such can be created is a good one and should definitely be looked into. However, jumping doesn't seem, in my mind, to be the proper vehicle for that trip. XIV isn't a fast paced, platformer style mmo like a lot of others out there. It's slower paced and likes to put more emphasis on timing and combos.

Might have been a bit hard to follow what I said lol. I'm having trouble thinking straight at the moment, so forgive me if that didn't come out very clearly.

Oh right, one last point. I think jumping would be fine but only in a confined way. Free-form jumping wouldn't mesh well with the game. Specific trigger points, abilities that are defensive in nature and respond to certain attacks by jumping, and the like I think would be fine. Having the space bar make you jump whenever you feel like it however, ultimately, wouldn't add any amount of depth. =/

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but your whole point rests on your own interpretation of what FFXIV is as a game. And... to be honest, whether it's true or not, the fact remains that maybe nobody but a select few want to even play that game. The focus for combat in FFXIV is more centered on tactics and teamwork, which i agree with, but that has nothing to do with the mechanics of exploration, which is why I think jump should be implemented.

If your only resistance to jumping, which would add depth to exploration, is because it "wouldn't mesh with the game", then I have to ask why we would want to play a game that thinks exploration and linearity are compatible concepts?

They just aren't compatible. You can't expect to strike out on your own when the path only leads one way.

If you are placed on a flat, narrow, tunnel, with only one axis of movement, then how is that exploration? If you then add jumping which is automated and only in specific places, then that is also linear and limiting.

A fantasy MMO is supposed to be about adventure. Having the game dictate as to where you should explore defeats the purpose of exploration. Automatic jumping adds nothing and shouldn't even be implemented.

If the only reason it is to be implemented is to clear certain obstacles, then climbing would be more aesthetically pleasing anyway.

[Focant]

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but your whole point rests on your own interpretation of what FFXIV is as a game. And... to be honest, whether it's true or not, the fact remains that maybe nobody but a select few want to even play that game. The focus for combat in FFXIV is more centered on tactics and teamwork, which i agree with, but that has nothing to do with the mechanics of exploration, which is why I think jump should be implemented.

If your only resistance to jumping, which would add depth to exploration, is because it "wouldn't mesh with the game", then I have to ask why we would want to play a game that thinks exploration and linearity are compatible concepts?

They just aren't compatible. You can't expect to strike out on your own when the path only leads one way.

If you are placed on a flat, narrow, tunnel, with only one axis of movement, then how is that exploration? If you then add jumping which is automated and only in specific places, then that is also linear and limiting.

A fantasy MMO is supposed to be about adventure. Having the game dictate as to where you should explore defeats the purpose of exploration. Automatic jumping adds nothing and shouldn't even be implemented.

If the only reason it is to be implemented is to clear certain obstacles, then climbing would be more aesthetically pleasing anyway.

Well that post was focused more on how XIV would benefit from other features being implemented in place of jump. It's not a platformer style game just in how it handles. It's a bit of an opinion yes but the basis for it is tangible. The game is just a lot slower paced. Rather then implement jump, implement strategy, tactics, cross-class combos, variety in combat, etc. Jumping wouldn't add near as much depth to a game like XIV as it would other mmos like WoW, just on the basis of how it handles and plays.

Now about exploration, this definitely harkens back to my first post. XIV is, relative to other mmos, closed. High cliffs that aren't scalable and are bordered by invisible walls, narrow paths, etc. are all aspects of the game. The world is, in the very way it was designed, confined. I used this analogy earlier but it'd be like jumping in a box. What good is the ability to jump if jumping takes you nowhere new? Nowhere you couldn't get without jumping? At best it provides shortcuts but that's not exactly exploring. I mean the only reason you can call jumping, in my mind anyways, a form of exploration in other games is because the only movement barrier is gravity, there are no "real" invisible walls holding you in. If you want to cliff dive into the ocean you can. In XIV, you can't and to allow that would require some hefty reworking of the game's zones.

I'm not saying jumping wouldn't mesh with the game because of my own idea of how the game "should" be, but on the basis of how it feels and maintaining consistency with the apparent design philosophy behind it all. The game was clearly built without jumping in mind. I know people don't like the argument "It wasn't meant to have jump," but it's entirely true and shows up a lot in the way the game is designed. To have it mean anything at all in the game the game would need to be redesigned so that jumping meant something. If they're going to have to create more content to justify a new mechanic why not just skip that mechanic and instead create new ones that compliment what's already there?

The style of dress for this party is formal, you can't show up in jeans and expect to fit in. D:

[Nephera]

A fantasy MMO is supposed to be about adventure. Having the game dictate as to where you should explore defeats the purpose of exploration. Automatic jumping adds nothing and shouldn't even be implemented.

ah ho hum, there's something to think about.

Final fantasy has always been a venue for linear storytelling and the game mechanics are traditionally planned around that.

Buuuut the traditional mmo is more open ended and while you're limited to where you can go by level the choice is pretty much yours, some content can even be bypassed altogether.

XIV feels like it took both of those concepts and mashed them together very poorly, there have been examples of fairly linear mmos (Guild wars and phantasy star online come to mind) that have done very well for themselves. But XIV feels like it cant decide between linear storytelling(why we have a main quest line) and freedom of choice(why our only other option are some rather inconsequential class quests and the recently added quests which offer no sp).

and the friction between the two philosophies manifests itself as arguments about jump.

Terrain is rough and multileveled and has all sorts of paths and coves that feel like they should lead somewhere but they just dont. After an hour of walking you feel like you should see some sort of landmark or something that just isnt there. Off in the distance you can see structures that look interesting and curious but you can never get close to them, a lot of the terrain feels like it was meant to be climbed on (or its deliberately designed to waste your time when you're not on a road so you spend more time leveling, but lets give them the benefit of the doubt here). I cant proclaim to know the design philosophy behind the map, maybe it was a miscommunication or maybe there was more. I hate, HATE going back to using XI as a reference but if you compare the two, vanadiel had much smaller zones that were concise and to the point and when you put them side by side it looks like Eorzea had plans for something more.



TLDR:

The terrain was designed for non linear gameplay thats not currently in game. and is also rather unfinished,clearly.


edit: Also with egregious use of the copy paste tool.

double edit: i edited my post a lot because hurr i'm a durr.

[Kimahri]

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but your whole point rests on your own interpretation of what FFXIV is as a game. And... to be honest, whether it's true or not, the fact remains that maybe nobody but a select few want to even play that game. The focus for combat in FFXIV is more centered on tactics and teamwork, which i agree with, but that has nothing to do with the mechanics of exploration, which is why I think jump should be implemented.

If your only resistance to jumping, which would add depth to exploration, is because it "wouldn't mesh with the game", then I have to ask why we would want to play a game that thinks exploration and linearity are compatible concepts?

They just aren't compatible. You can't expect to strike out on your own when the path only leads one way.

If you are placed on a flat, narrow, tunnel, with only one axis of movement, then how is that exploration? If you then add jumping which is automated and only in specific places, then that is also linear and limiting.

A fantasy MMO is supposed to be about adventure. Having the game dictate as to where you should explore defeats the purpose of exploration. Automatic jumping adds nothing and shouldn't even be implemented.

If the only reason it is to be implemented is to clear certain obstacles, then climbing would be more aesthetically pleasing anyway.

Okay, Gifthorse. I don't think you should write in this thread anymore. You have absolutely no reasoning behind your beliefs on why a manual jump adds depth. Let's go ahead and use your model of a flat narrow tunnel. How would jumping help that tunnel become more in depth as far as exploration concerns? Let's say that you have to jump now in order to scale the obstacles. Isn't that still a linear path considering you're coming from Point A and trying to get to Point B?

There are far more effective means to add a sense of exploration to this game that I have mentioned before. (In case you forgot. Climbing, Swimming, and maybe Flying.....Maybe Flying...) Jumping adds absolutely no depth like you seem to think. Again I challenge you to list five examples of how jump would be useful as a manual action....I remember you told me when having to jump a gap....That's one.....Four more!

And you're right. "If the only reason it is to be implemented is to clear certain obstacles, then climbing would be more aesthetically pleasing anyway" Couldn't agree with you more on this point of your post.

Also.....Just throwing it in there.......Jump wasn't used in FFXI and it never once was brought up to my knowledge. It was still a successful game even though they didn't add this feature...Care to explain?

[gifthorse]

Well that post was focused more on how XIV would benefit from other features being implemented in place of jump. It's not a platformer style game just in how it handles. It's a bit of an opinion yes but the basis for it is tangible. The game is just a lot slower paced. Rather then implement jump, implement strategy, tactics, cross-class combos, variety in combat, etc. Jumping wouldn't add near as much depth to a game like XIV as it would other mmos like WoW, just on the basis of how it handles and plays.

Now about exploration, this definitely harkens back to my first post. XIV is, relative to other mmos, closed. High cliffs that aren't scalable and are bordered by invisible walls, narrow paths, etc. are all aspects of the game. The world is, in the very way it was designed, confined. I used this analogy earlier but it'd be like jumping in a box. What good is the ability to jump if jumping takes you nowhere new? Nowhere you couldn't get without jumping? At best it provides shortcuts but that's not exactly exploring. I mean the only reason you can call jumping, in my mind anyways, a form of exploration in other games is because the only movement barrier is gravity, there are no "real" invisible walls holding you in. If you want to cliff dive into the ocean you can. In XIV, you can't and to allow that would require some hefty reworking of the game's zones.

I'm not saying jumping wouldn't mesh with the game because of my own idea of how the game "should" be, but on the basis of how it feels and maintaining that consistency. I'm not saying we turn it into "that" kind of game, but that it was from the get go intended to be that way and thus isn't built with jumping considered. I know people don't like the argument "It wasn't meant to have jump," but it's entirely true and shows up a lot in the way the game is designed. To have it mean anything at all in the game the game would need to be redesigned so that jumping meant something.

The style of dress for this party is formal, you can't show up in jeans and expect to fit in. D:

Well I can certainly see that the game was designed around a very linear experience. We are ushered from place to place in a very closed world. In order for the kind of exploration I talked of, things would have to be opened up a bit. The illlusion of freedom, and possibilities for exploration, all of which aren't presently in the game, would need to be added in order to make jumping sensical.

While this may sound a tall order for a game already released, there has already been talk of redeveloping zones, so changing some things to facilitate jumping isn't out of the realms of possibility. Or in any case, the game is free to move in new directions from here on out if it so chooses given that the direction it is currently taking is said by most to be an undesirable one.

With that said, a complete overhaul of the zones (or new zones) is not really needed to give impetus to the idea of jumping, as there are already areas within the game where jumping would benefit the player. There are areas which are only slightly out of reach where jumping would allow us to get to.

Of course the argument really comes down to: are platforming elements compatible with an MMORPG, and a Final Fantasy MMORPG at that? Well, to answer that, before just appealing to the tradition of MMORPGS, I think it pays to judge the idea on its own merits.

If you consider FFXI, most dungeon-type zones had treasure chests in them. To include something of that sort in FFXIV, but to place the chests in difficult-to-reach corners of the zones would add an element of exploration and discovery to the game as yet unheard of. So this is one example where jumping improves upon a typical feature of an MMO. I mean, treasure hunting in FFXI was quite a lucrative passtime for thiefs, but running around in circles waiting for chests to spawn isn't exactly a fair representation of treasure hunting. So not only would jumping add to the realism of the game in some respects, but such platforming elements would add more enjoyment to this specific activity and would also make it more of a risk/reward situation.

Having secret areas with rewards in them other than coffers is also a possibility. For example, how about areas with rare NMs, entranceways to new zones and instances, shortcuts? Jumping adds a host of opportunities that a game without it can't really imitate. The reward of finding and getting to such places is reduced to nothing when anyone can just walk there.

You can't hide anything in a game world where the only method of getting anywhere is walking. To give the game world more depth, it needs secrets. And currently it feels like there are none, and it can't even create any without locking out players by resorting to even more linear methods, locked doors etc.

If you treat this game as a beta, then jumping is something they could keep in mind for future content.

Okay, Gifthorse. I don't think you should write in this thread anymore. You have absolutely no reasoning behind your beliefs on why a manual jump adds depth. Let's go ahead and use your model of a flat narrow tunnel. How would jumping help that tunnel become more in depth as far as exploration concerns? Let's say that you have to jump now in order to scale the obstacles. Isn't that still a linear path considering you're coming from Point A and trying to get to Point B?

There are far more effective means to add a sense of exploration to this game that I have mentioned before. (In case you forgot. Climbing, Swimming, and maybe Flying.....Maybe Flying...) Jumping adds absolutely no depth like you seem to think. Again I challenge you to list five examples of how jump would be useful as a manual action....I remember you told me when having to jump a gap....That's one.....Four more!

And you're right. "If the only reason it is to be implemented is to clear certain obstacles, then climbing would be more aesthetically pleasing anyway" Couldn't agree with you more on this point of your post.

Also.....Just throwing it in there.......Jump wasn't used in FFXI and it never once was brought up to my knowledge. It was still a successful game even though they didn't add this feature...Care to explain?

I don't think I can do much more beyond reiterate my points which you are ignoring anyway, so I probably won't be posting here anymore. It's futile if you just ignore everything I say just so you can have the last word.

A path like the one i mentioned is a metaphor for the way zones are developed in FFXIV. At some point, a developer obviously has to develop the content to give jumping meaning. So I'm not saying getting "from point A to point B" with jumping is somehow mystically superior. I'm just saying, if you have one axis of motion, then that limits the amount of interesting "point Bs" you can have.

And I agree with all those other types of movements. Climbing and swimming are good too, along with flying.

To jump a gap is the only thing jumping can ever do in terms of exploration. The point isn't that it can do more than one thing, it's the fact that it opens up the game-world design for more interesting areas; areas that are more difficult to travel to than those currently in the game. And also, the difficulty in getting to such places isn't defined by the level of the mobs in the way.

[Rawry]

Well I can certainly see that the game was designed around a very linear experience. We are ushered from place to place in a very closed world. In order for the kind of exploration I talked of, things would have to be opened up a bit. The illlusion of freedom, and possibilities for exploration, all of which aren't presently in the game, would need to be added in order to make jumping sensical.

While this may sound a tall order for a game already released, there has already been talk of redeveloping zones, so changing some things to facilitate jumping isn't out of the realms of possibility. Or in any case, the game is free to move in new directions from here on out if it so chooses given that the direction it is currently taking is said by most to be an undesirable one.

With that said, a complete overhaul of the zones (or new zones) is not really needed to give impetus to the idea of jumping, as there are already areas within the game where jumping would benefit the player. There are areas which are only slightly out of reach where jumping would allow us to get to.

Of course the argument really comes down to: are platforming elements compatible with an MMORPG, and a Final Fantasy MMORPG at that? Well, to answer that, before just appealing to the tradition of MMORPGS, I think it pays to judge the idea on its own merits.

If you consider FFXI, most dungeon-type zones had treasure chests in them. To include something of that sort in FFXIV, but to place the chests in difficult-to-reach corners of the zones would add an element of exploration and discovery to the game as yet unheard of. So this is one example where jumping improves upon a typical feature of an MMO. I mean, treasure hunting in FFXI was quite a lucrative passtime for thiefs, but running around in circles waiting for chests to spawn isn't exactly a fair representation of treasure hunting. So not only would jumping add to the realism of the game in some respects, but such platforming elements would add more enjoyment to this specific activity and would also make it more of a risk/reward situation.

Having secret areas with rewards in them other than coffers is also a possibility. For example, how about areas with rare NMs, entranceways to new zones and instances, shortcuts? Jumping adds a host of opportunities that a game without it can't really imitate. The reward of finding and getting to such places is reduced to nothing when anyone can just walk there.

You can't hide anything in a game world where the only method of getting anywhere is walking. To give the game world more depth, it needs secrets. And currently it feels like there are none, and it can't even create any without locking out players by resorting to even more linear methods, locked doors etc.

If you treat this game as a beta, then jumping is something they could keep in mind for future content.



I don't think I can do much more beyond reiterate my points which you are ignoring anyway, so I probably won't be posting here anymore. It's futile if you just ignore everything I say just so you can have the last word.

A path like the one i mentioned is a metaphor for the way zones are developed in FFXIV. At some point, a developer obviously has to develop the content to give jumping meaning. So I'm not saying getting "from point A to point B" with jumping is somehow mystically superior. I'm just saying, if you have one axis of motion, then that limits the amount of interesting "point Bs" you can have.

And I agree with all those other types of movements. Climbing and swimming are good too, along with flying.

To jump a gap is the only thing jumping can ever do in terms of exploration. The point isn't that it can do more than one thing, it's the fact that it opens up the game-world design for more interesting areas; areas that are more difficult to travel to than those currently in the game. And also, the difficulty in getting to such places isn't defined by the level of the mobs in the way.

Jumping can make getting from point A to point B.. much faster. Jumping up a hill sure beats walking 5 minutes around it.