[dev1008] About Jumping

[gifthorse]

I can't say that jumping is inherently "bad," that it somehow hinders the game or wouldn't have some place given proper supporting content. I must say though that by choosing to not include jumping, the game instantly took a stance on it. If you can't jump you build the areas with characters being firmly planted on the ground in mind. You create content focusing on other aspects of gameplay aside from area navigation. The game could certainly be reworked to accommodate jumping. It could be built up to provide an in-depth experience with that feature. At what point though are you moving away from what makes sense given what's already there and instead attempting to build an environment solely for a personally desired feature? At what point are you making a new game instead of improving an old one? Perhaps that last point is a bit exaggerated but I do wonder if jumping would truly make the game so much better.

I'm fine with jump if it's added somewhere down the line, as long as there's proper motivation to use it. Personally though I feel too much would need to be changed to accommodate it and what would be gained would hardly justify the effort. We can continue to go around the tree or tear it up and build a road. Either is fine, ultimately, it's just a matter of if saving time not going around the tree is worth the effort of destroying it. =/

Also, one thing to add. I know people saying jumping doesn't seem "FF" enough might get on your nerves. This is XIV and not XI, yeah. Thing is it's built by some of the same people and they set out to give us an experience different from that of the mainstream mmo. It may not be what you or any other person wants, but discrediting someone's argument because they feel that jumping doesn't feel completely in tune with the heart of the game is like saying people can't like other genres of games.

You know what I realised? This all just brings us back to the linearity debate. Final Fantasy XIV was indeed developed with a focus on people navigating through environments in one particular way. Just look at The Black Shroud for a lesson in tunnelling people down a path. Or look at Cassiopeia Hollow as an example of unused areas. Have you ever noticed how much more that zone would open up if you could swim and jump instead of walk over those Lily Pads?

So although the game was designed with these features at its core, that doesn't mean we can't disagree with them. Maybe people enjoy different genres of games, but can't we argue these features by themselves instead of on a genre-by-genre basis? After all, what do you gain from linear travel besides simplicity? The same thing that gives developers the freedom to make zones in a way they see fit is the same thing that removes our sense of freedom to navigate those zones without frustration.

You can build a zone full of knee-high barriers, but you can't expect people to be ok with this in a fantasy MMO which is meant to reflect reality. In real life, such things wouldn't present themselves as a barrier. This itself detracts from the immersion - the ability to engross yourself in the game - simply by virtue of the fact that it leads to frustration. There is a time and place for a genre of games, but an MMO shouldn't try to be a game. It should try to be an imitation of life, but with more interesting gameplay. People play MMOs to do things they can't do in real life, they dont play MMOs to be able to do even less.

In this day and age, you can create a game like FFXIV if you want, but you can't expect it to find a large audience. If you're not even going to try aid in the illusion of freedom in an MMO, then perhaps you're in the wrong industry.

[PepperMint]

That's true cause you are what, 80? And all those damned whippersnappers playing online video games these days.. who said they have a right to play a video game!

i meant like immature, but the main point is that at this point it's unless. Kinda wish there was a "sprint" mode tho.

[gifthorse]

i meant like immature, but the main point is that at this point it's unless. Kinda wish there was a "sprint" mode tho.

I'm making a thread on this... kind of. Right now.

[Focant]

You know what I realised? This all just brings us back to the linearity debate. Final Fantasy XIV was indeed developed with a focus on people navigating through environments in one particular way. Just look at The Black Shroud for a lesson in tunnelling people down a path. Or look at Cassiopeia Hollow as an example of unused areas. Have you ever noticed how much more that zone would open up if you could swim and jump instead of walk over those Lily Pads?

So although the game was designed with these features at its core, that doesn't mean we can't disagree with them. Maybe people enjoy different genres of games, but can't we argue these features by themselves instead of on a genre-by-genre basis? After all, what do you gain from linear travel besides simplicity? The same thing that gives developers the freedom to make zones in a way they see fit is the same thing that removes our sense of freedom to navigate those zones without frustration.

You can build a zone full of knee-high barriers, but you can't expect people to be ok with this in a fantasy MMO which is meant to reflect reality. In real life, such things wouldn't present themselves as a barrier. This itself detracts from the immersion - the ability to engross yourself in the game - simply by virtue of the fact that it leads to frustration. There is a time and place for a genre of games, but an MMO shouldn't try to be a game. It should try to be an imitation of life, but with more interesting gameplay. People play MMOs to do things they can't do in real life, they dont play MMOs to be able to do even less.

In this day and age, you can create a game like FFXIV if you want, but you can't expect it to find a large audience. If you're not even going to try aid in the illusion of freedom in an MMO, then perhaps you're in the wrong industry.

Ultimately yes, it comes down the linearity of the game and the design behind the zones as well as the gameplay. Really at this point I think it'd be better to start a crusade for more open zones either alongside or before demanding a jump feature. What good is jump if you're standing around in a prairie right?

Anyways, some types of games benefit from certain features more than others. They provide different experiences. To say one experience trumps any other and trying to back it up logically is pointless since it's all a matter of what people enjoy the most personally.

I can't argue that your idea of a fun, engrossing mmo is wrong. That is a purely opinionated discussion. So really at this point it might not be as beneficial to argue why jumping should be implemented and more so to gather support for a more open style of play. Because really, at this point, we've come to the bottom of the argument, the fundamental disparity in our views. It all boils down to what kind of game we want to play and what features we think deserve the most attention. Though XIV isn't a very welcoming environment to jumping, if you're willing to build support for changing that then go for it. The changes it would undergo probably wouldn't greatly appeal to me but I have no reason to say that my idea of fun is any better than your own. It really just matters what the most people want in the end. =/

XIV is a specific type of experience, one that doesn't cater to everyone. However, if enough people demand it there's potential to change it so fundamentally as to steer it in an entirely new direction leaving it nothing like what it is now. It's a tall order but if the people demand it then so be it.

I feel a need to summarize what I'm saying in like... two or three sentences. Essentially, XIV isn't a jumping man's game and wasn't intended to be, it gives an experience apart from other mmos. If you're up for the challenge though, and if SE agrees with you, you can possibly change it into an entirely new game. We aren't really dealing with why jump would or wouldn't fit into XIV anymore, but if XIV should be the kind of game that it can fit into.

[Rowyne]

@gifthorse: There are people who have challenged someone to make a truly compelling argument as to why a jump feature would genuinely enrich our gameplay experience.

I think you finally did.

Bravo, sir. I've enjoyed your last few posts immensely.

@Focant: While I am personally biased in this argument and don't agree (I'd like to see a jump function), I appreciate seeing your equally well-thought-out responses.

These are the kinds of debates I like.

Well done!

[Favz]

I would like jumping. Jumping allows you to develop future quests and dungeons with unique action-oriented mechanisms in mind.

Some of my favorite MMO quests were in the game Asheron's Call 2. They had a quest hub where players could do quests that tested their ability to manuver themselves in the game world. One example was a puzzle quests where players would jump from one low gravity platform to another, being careful to avoid the "bad" platforms where they would fall through the platform and fail the quest. Another great example from the same quest was a quest involving a dungeon run through a dungeon with giant moving objects that players had to jump from object to object, and avoid objects that would push them off of their standing area to their death. It added a great dimension to the game, and I strongly recommend adding jumping.

You are writing excacty what form of jumping I not like.
I like bo be able to play a game in a relaxed way with a gamepad using tactics not manuver skills.
(I'm not against that it should be possible to climb mountins in way that uses the current manuver)

[Rawry]

um.. this is me confused again.

right now you cant walk up and down hills other then where they allow you to. im pretty sure its more then obvious that people, such as my self are talking about them removing the barriers and allowing me to jump down hills and such that are currently blocked. I can think of many places around Uldah and limsa where i have to walk around stupid foot hills in order to walk up a path that's just as steep. let me jump off it ffs....

[Focant]

Just wanted to point this out for you Rawry.

Map Collision Detection Adjustments:

• Being unable to descend ledges where it seems you can easily fall off
• Feeling of strangeness when you can't climb up a hill that looks to be easily climbable

We have received a lot of feedback pointing these things out from numerous players, but the task of relieving stress during character movement is currently being tested by development in the form of map collision detection adjustments.
If you can think about this separately from the jump implementation discussion it would really help a lot.

From the translated Yoshi-P post in this very thread. D:

I guess as a parting statement, since I feel I've exhausted all of my jump discussion points, I think jumping would be a wonderful addition if it was confined to "expression," as it was described in Yoshi-P's post. I think it'd add a nice level of character movement and make things seem a bit more lively.

The key here though is that it'd be a form of expression meaning it wouldn't be something spammable or really usable when navigating terrain. At most perhaps a set of emotes or something or a limited amount of small hops when moving, something that doesn't actually get you anywhere. I'm all for expanded character movement but only when it's confined to expression and interaction with the world and not how they navigate terrain or fight battles and such. Think, essentially, the opposite of sitting.

Hmm on that note I want more chairs to sit in. ; ;

[Kimahri]

Focant.....I think the war is over when it comes to this topic. I think I must've listed 15 different ways that Jump should only be implemented in this game as a collision detected, and at least carefully explained to people how their idea's still fall in line with a collision detection model, but people still ignore it and then list 5 different stupid ways that directly relate to what jumping doesn't do. I would really love to see an idiot go out and try to jump up 4 feet vertical. I would also really love to see someone try and jump up a six foot, 60 degree angle embankment. Oh.......and also you don't jump from a 20 foot hill.....You fall! It's called, "Jumping" because it's describing an action. You don't hear many people saying, "I'm going to fall to my death." Doesn't happen.

I'm done. I can't write this thread anymore. Nobody has a decent idea that doesn't directly fall into the lines of NEEDING to jump manually. Only thing they need is a Cattle Prod in the back of the neck to induce some Brain Cell activity. Let's face it. You don't jump up a hill. You climb a hill. You don't jump down a ledge. You fall from the ledge.

Have fun with this post. I'm going to talk about more important things that affects this game currently. Not that people, like Gifthorse, (Sorry, dude....I just think you're a few fries short of a happy meal.) care about.....Just as long as he's standing there jumping away as the fan base slowly dwindles away and this game falls flat on it's back. Peace!

[Rawry]

as im not a dev.. i have no idea what that means. All i know is i want to be able to jump down hills.. and not have to walk around stupid hills.

who spams jumps? seriously..that is the lamest "discussion point" im ever heard. people spam now. I feel that if they added jumping to the game... emotes would STILL be spammed way more.

sigh you keep editing your post.........lol

annnyways..

so what youre saying is jumping in place is cool.. but jumping for a reason.. is not? I don't get what you're trying to say.. seriously.