[dev1008] About Jumping

[gifthorse]

Well I want to keep this post a bit shorter so I'll just say this. If you aren't opposed to suggesting SE rework the entire core of the game as far as jumping and navigating terrain are concerned, then I have no counter argument. My only comment on it is if jumping really warrants so much time and effort being put into sweeping changes. In my mind no, it doesn't seem a critical enough gameplay element for something like that. When you think of mmos you think of leveling, fighting, partying, running dungeons, etc. Those are worth the time, jumping not so much.

You also have to keep in mind mmos are consistent worlds. It's not like a single player game where you'll encounter hidden paths and secret areas a few times. Once they're discovered, once the patterns are understood, they no longer hold that luster they once had. Jumping would be the same way as far as hunting treasure and stuff is concerned, it becomes a needless obstacle. It'd be no different, ultimately, than putting a door in the way. I mean the secret beach in Valkurm, after a short time, wasn't really secret anymore. After that initial "Oh wow, a hidden path!" moment, it was just another area. Monsters scouring the hallways, the chance of mimics, things like that are dangerous aspects that always play a part. They're unpredictable and dealing with them can always maintain some element of fun.

The extreme response to what I said might be "Well they should just take away all obstacles if that's how you feel!" which isn't what I'm getting at at all. I'm just saying the level to which the game would grow because of jumping isn't as great as some would believe.

I realise it's asking a lot. And that is perhaps the only valid argument I can find for not implementing it. Development time doesn't grow on trees, after all.

But the fact remains that it can improve the game more than it can harm it.

I guess everyone has their own little opinions on what an MMO is "all about". Running dungeons, levelling up, and other such activities are all part of what makes the game, and probably something most people habitually associate with an MMO. But an MMO isn't just those things.

I think anything that adds something to a game should be considered when developing one. Just being able to jump between platforms in a dungeon with the possibility of missing, while could be frustrating if you're really angst-ridden, but it would also help flesh out that area.

The fact that everywhere in the world there is a dedicated path that leads you from A to B to C to D to A is unrealistic. At some point you're going to have to jump whilst travelling.

I don't know if you've watched Man vs. Wild, but he jumps all the time.

In California they have rooms where smokers can go to smoke. They pack them all in there like animals and they can smoke up the whole room. I think we need to have a room like that for this forum. There should be a whole forum just for FFXI nuts where we can pack em in there so they can talk about not jumping, old classes, airships, chocobos, removing teleports, sawing their nuts off, and everything else they like.

Or maybe FFXIV could have a feature called Loyalty Mode where you had no anima, 7 bazaar slots total across your 2 retainers, couldn't equip other classes' abilities, and run speed reduced by 50%. Actually I think I may be on to something here.

EDIT: Also there would be airships but you'd have to wait 9 1/2 minutes everytime you wanted to ride one.

Aw, that's so mean. They can't help the way they are.

[Neptune]

Focant, how dare you call into question my important thread contribution!

Also, thank you gifthorse.

[Focant]

I know I'm treading the same ground quite a bit in my posts. I keep harping on the design philosophy of XIV and the way it handles. I'm going to probably do so again a bit so, forgive me.

The thing you have to consider though is what path would expand XIV the most? What features would improve it the most? If you compared jumping side by side with something like... improved party mechanics and expanding battle regimens, streamlining them at the same time, I'd say that improving party mechanics would go a lot farther in giving the game more depth. There are many ways of expanding the game, jumping included, but the question is, given what XIV is, not what it could have been or what it's not, what new features would help the most? Do we demolish what's there and rebuild it to cater to a single mechanic that may end up adding a limited level of depth, or do we take what's there and build on it?

In this case I'd say we should build on what's there instead of starting anew. Focus on expanding the game in other ways, giving it a unique experience unto itself, something it's already positioned to do.

[gifthorse]

I know I'm treading the same ground quite a bit in my posts. I keep harping on the design philosophy of XIV and the way it handles. I'm going to probably do so again a bit so, forgive me.

The thing you have to consider though is what path would expand XIV the most? What features would improve it the most? If you compared jumping side by side with something like... improved party mechanics and expanding battle regimens, streamlining them at the same time, I'd say that improving party mechanics would go a lot farther in giving the game more depth. There are many ways of expanding the game, jumping included, but the question is, given what XIV is, not what it could have been or what it's not, what new features would help the most? Do we demolish what's there and rebuild it to cater to a single mechanic that may end up adding a limited level of depth, or do we take what's there and build on it?

In this case I'd say we should build on what's there instead of starting anew. Focus on expanding the game in other ways, giving it a unique experience unto itself, something it's already positioned to do.

I have to agree that jumping is by no means a priority. And if they implemented it now, it could be seen as kind of superfluous; just a practical means of getting over some rocks and whatnot. But even now, the zones can accommodate it. The zones which we have presently, while not giving much meaning to it, don't discourage it.

For future reference, they could develop zones with the jump feature in mind. But again, I don't think it's a priority. However, just because it is not a priority compared to the game's other failings, does not mean it should be dismissed as totally incompatible with the design philosophy, and that's mainly because the design philosophy has not taken jumping into account. The game has no opinion on jumping at the moment. The zones are indifferent to it. It could be added, or it couldn't and it wouldnt make much difference to the mechanics in place.

I will say this, I think it should be implemented if only so that it could inform more interesting content in the future.

So in conclusion, development time is the only factor influencing my opinion on jumping. I do think it's an integral part of any MMO, but I don't think it's a priority. My main qualm is with those who dismiss its implementation for reasons which are something along the lines of: "I don't want bunny hopping, platforming elements, or any thing I deem to be at odds with Final Fantasy tradition."

[Focant]

i may be confused.... and correct me if im wrong.. but are you saying that the way the game is designed now.. they wouldnt be able to add "jumping" with out totally redesigning everything?

No I'm saying that in order to make jumping meaningful, a lot more work would have to go into it than creating an animation and allowing character to move vertically. It's one thing to add the feature, it's another to give it purpose.

I have to agree that jumping is by no means a priority. And if they implemented it now, it could be seen as kind of superfluous; just a practical means of getting over some rocks and whatnot. But even now, the zones can accommodate it. The zones which we have presently, while not giving much meaning to it, don't discourage it.

For future reference, they could develop zones with the jump feature in mind. But again, I don't think it's a priority. However, just because it is not a priority compared to the game's other failings, does not mean it should be dismissed as totally incompatible with the design philosophy, and that's mainly because the design philosophy has not taken jumping into account. The game has no opinion on jumping at the moment. The zones are indifferent to it. It could be added, or it couldn't and it wouldnt make much difference to the mechanics in place.

I will say this, I think it should be implemented if only so that it could inform more interesting content in the future.

So in conclusion, development time is the only factor influencing my opinion on jumping. I do think it's an integral part of any MMO, but I don't think it's a priority. My main qualm is with those who dismiss its implementation for reasons which are something along the lines of: "I don't want bunny hopping, platforming elements, or any thing I deem to be at odds with Final Fantasy tradition."

I can't say that jumping is inherently "bad," that it somehow hinders the game or wouldn't have some place given proper supporting content. I must say though that by choosing to not include jumping, the game instantly took a stance on it. If you can't jump you build the areas with characters being firmly planted on the ground in mind. You create content focusing on other aspects of gameplay aside from area navigation. The game could certainly be reworked to accommodate jumping. It could be built up to provide an in-depth experience with that feature. At what point though are you moving away from what makes sense given what's already there and instead attempting to build an environment solely for a personally desired feature? At what point are you making a new game instead of improving an old one? Perhaps that last point is a bit exaggerated but I do wonder if jumping would truly make the game so much better.

I'm fine with jump if it's added somewhere down the line, as long as there's proper motivation to use it. Personally though I feel too much would need to be changed to accommodate it and what would be gained would hardly justify the effort. We can continue to go around the tree or tear it up and build a road. Either is fine, ultimately, it's just a matter of if saving time not going around the tree is worth the effort of destroying it. =/

Also, one thing to add. I know people saying jumping doesn't seem "FF" enough might get on your nerves. This is XIV and not XI, yeah. Thing is it's built by some of the same people and they set out to give us an experience different from that of the mainstream mmo. It may not be what you or any other person wants, but discrediting someone's argument because they feel that jumping doesn't feel completely in tune with the heart of the game is like saying people can't like other genres of games.

[Rawry]

No I'm saying that in order to make jumping meaningful, a lot more work would have to go into it than creating an animation and allowing character to move vertically. It's one thing to add the feature, it's another to give it purpose.

Erm Being able to jump over that annoying ass fence that always gets in my way, or jumping up a hill that I would other wise have to spend 5 minutes walking around is reason enough for me. If they add other reasons to jump, such as boss encounters that require you to jump then yay.. even better. Right now -for me- its more about convenience and the feeling of freedom.

[gifthorse]

I can't say that jumping is inherently "bad," that it somehow hinders the game or wouldn't have some place given proper supporting content. I must say though that by choosing to not include jumping, the game instantly took a stance on it. If you can't jump you build the areas with characters being firmly planted on the ground in mind. You create content focusing on other aspects of gameplay aside from area navigation. The game could certainly be reworked to accommodate jumping. It could be built up to provide an in-depth experience with that feature. At what point though are you moving away from what makes sense given what's already there and instead attempting to build an environment solely for a personally desired feature? At what point are you making a new game instead of improving an old one? Perhaps that last point is a bit exaggerated but I do wonder if jumping would truly make the game so much better.

I'm fine with jump if it's added somewhere down the line, as long as there's proper motivation to use it. Personally though I feel too much would need to be changed to accommodate it and what would be gained would hardly justify the effort. We can continue to go around the tree or tear it up and build a road. Either is fine, ultimately, it's just a matter of if saving time not going around the tree is worth the effort of destroying it. =/

Also, one thing to add. I know people saying jumping doesn't seem "FF" enough might get on your nerves. This is XIV and not XI, yeah. Thing is it's built by some of the same people and they set out to give us an experience different from that of the mainstream mmo. It may not be what you or any other person wants, but discrediting someone's argument because they feel that jumping doesn't feel completely in tune with the heart of the game is like saying people can't like other genres of games.

You know what I realised? This all just brings us back to the linearity debate. Final Fantasy XIV was indeed developed with a focus on people navigating through environments in one particular way. Just look at The Black Shroud for a lesson in tunnelling people down a path. Or look at Cassiopeia Hollow as an example of unused areas. Have you ever noticed how much more that zone would open up if you could swim and jump instead of walk over those Lily Pads?

So although the game was designed with these features at its core, that doesn't mean we can't disagree with them. Maybe people enjoy different genres of games, but can't we argue these features by themselves instead of on a genre-by-genre basis? After all, what do you gain from linear travel besides simplicity? The same thing that gives developers the freedom to make zones in a way they see fit is the same thing that removes our sense of freedom to navigate those zones without frustration.

You can build a zone full of knee-high barriers, but you can't expect people to be ok with this in a fantasy MMO which is meant to reflect reality. In real life, such things wouldn't present themselves as a barrier. This itself detracts from the immersion - the ability to engross yourself in the game - simply by virtue of the fact that it leads to frustration. There is a time and place for a genre of games, but an MMO shouldn't try to be a game. It should try to be an imitation of life, but with more interesting gameplay. People play MMOs to do things they can't do in real life, they dont play MMOs to be able to do even less.

In this day and age, you can create a game like FFXIV if you want, but you can't expect it to find a large audience. If you're not even going to try aid in the illusion of freedom in an MMO, then perhaps you're in the wrong industry.

[Focant]

You know what I realised? This all just brings us back to the linearity debate. Final Fantasy XIV was indeed developed with a focus on people navigating through environments in one particular way. Just look at The Black Shroud for a lesson in tunnelling people down a path. Or look at Cassiopeia Hollow as an example of unused areas. Have you ever noticed how much more that zone would open up if you could swim and jump instead of walk over those Lily Pads?

So although the game was designed with these features at its core, that doesn't mean we can't disagree with them. Maybe people enjoy different genres of games, but can't we argue these features by themselves instead of on a genre-by-genre basis? After all, what do you gain from linear travel besides simplicity? The same thing that gives developers the freedom to make zones in a way they see fit is the same thing that removes our sense of freedom to navigate those zones without frustration.

You can build a zone full of knee-high barriers, but you can't expect people to be ok with this in a fantasy MMO which is meant to reflect reality. In real life, such things wouldn't present themselves as a barrier. This itself detracts from the immersion - the ability to engross yourself in the game - simply by virtue of the fact that it leads to frustration. There is a time and place for a genre of games, but an MMO shouldn't try to be a game. It should try to be an imitation of life, but with more interesting gameplay. People play MMOs to do things they can't do in real life, they dont play MMOs to be able to do even less.

In this day and age, you can create a game like FFXIV if you want, but you can't expect it to find a large audience. If you're not even going to try aid in the illusion of freedom in an MMO, then perhaps you're in the wrong industry.

Ultimately yes, it comes down the linearity of the game and the design behind the zones as well as the gameplay. Really at this point I think it'd be better to start a crusade for more open zones either alongside or before demanding a jump feature. What good is jump if you're standing around in a prairie right?

Anyways, some types of games benefit from certain features more than others. They provide different experiences. To say one experience trumps any other and trying to back it up logically is pointless since it's all a matter of what people enjoy the most personally.

I can't argue that your idea of a fun, engrossing mmo is wrong. That is a purely opinionated discussion. So really at this point it might not be as beneficial to argue why jumping should be implemented and more so to gather support for a more open style of play. Because really, at this point, we've come to the bottom of the argument, the fundamental disparity in our views. It all boils down to what kind of game we want to play and what features we think deserve the most attention. Though XIV isn't a very welcoming environment to jumping, if you're willing to build support for changing that then go for it. The changes it would undergo probably wouldn't greatly appeal to me but I have no reason to say that my idea of fun is any better than your own. It really just matters what the most people want in the end. =/

XIV is a specific type of experience, one that doesn't cater to everyone. However, if enough people demand it there's potential to change it so fundamentally as to steer it in an entirely new direction leaving it nothing like what it is now. It's a tall order but if the people demand it then so be it.

I feel a need to summarize what I'm saying in like... two or three sentences. Essentially, XIV isn't a jumping man's game and wasn't intended to be, it gives an experience apart from other mmos. If you're up for the challenge though, and if SE agrees with you, you can possibly change it into an entirely new game. We aren't really dealing with why jump would or wouldn't fit into XIV anymore, but if XIV should be the kind of game that it can fit into.

[Rawry]

I know I'm treading the same ground quite a bit in my posts. I keep harping on the design philosophy of XIV and the way it handles. I'm going to probably do so again a bit so, forgive me.

The thing you have to consider though is what path would expand XIV the most? What features would improve it the most? If you compared jumping side by side with something like... improved party mechanics and expanding battle regimens, streamlining them at the same time, I'd say that improving party mechanics would go a lot farther in giving the game more depth. There are many ways of expanding the game, jumping included, but the question is, given what XIV is, not what it could have been or what it's not, what new features would help the most? Do we demolish what's there and rebuild it to cater to a single mechanic that may end up adding a limited level of depth, or do we take what's there and build on it?

In this case I'd say we should build on what's there instead of starting anew. Focus on expanding the game in other ways, giving it a unique experience unto itself, something it's already positioned to do.

i may be confused.... and correct me if im wrong.. but are you saying that the way the game is designed now.. they wouldnt be able to add "jumping" with out totally redesigning everything?

[Aigeas]

Add jump, but with a Cooldown, like the ability to jump once each 10 seconds, for those who are annoyed to see people jumping around like Spaz nonstop :P