[dev1008] About Jumping

[Kimahri]

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but your whole point rests on your own interpretation of what FFXIV is as a game. And... to be honest, whether it's true or not, the fact remains that maybe nobody but a select few want to even play that game. The focus for combat in FFXIV is more centered on tactics and teamwork, which i agree with, but that has nothing to do with the mechanics of exploration, which is why I think jump should be implemented.

If your only resistance to jumping, which would add depth to exploration, is because it "wouldn't mesh with the game", then I have to ask why we would want to play a game that thinks exploration and linearity are compatible concepts?

They just aren't compatible. You can't expect to strike out on your own when the path only leads one way.

If you are placed on a flat, narrow, tunnel, with only one axis of movement, then how is that exploration? If you then add jumping which is automated and only in specific places, then that is also linear and limiting.

A fantasy MMO is supposed to be about adventure. Having the game dictate as to where you should explore defeats the purpose of exploration. Automatic jumping adds nothing and shouldn't even be implemented.

If the only reason it is to be implemented is to clear certain obstacles, then climbing would be more aesthetically pleasing anyway.

Okay, Gifthorse. I don't think you should write in this thread anymore. You have absolutely no reasoning behind your beliefs on why a manual jump adds depth. Let's go ahead and use your model of a flat narrow tunnel. How would jumping help that tunnel become more in depth as far as exploration concerns? Let's say that you have to jump now in order to scale the obstacles. Isn't that still a linear path considering you're coming from Point A and trying to get to Point B?

There are far more effective means to add a sense of exploration to this game that I have mentioned before. (In case you forgot. Climbing, Swimming, and maybe Flying.....Maybe Flying...) Jumping adds absolutely no depth like you seem to think. Again I challenge you to list five examples of how jump would be useful as a manual action....I remember you told me when having to jump a gap....That's one.....Four more!

And you're right. "If the only reason it is to be implemented is to clear certain obstacles, then climbing would be more aesthetically pleasing anyway" Couldn't agree with you more on this point of your post.

Also.....Just throwing it in there.......Jump wasn't used in FFXI and it never once was brought up to my knowledge. It was still a successful game even though they didn't add this feature...Care to explain?

[Frebaut]

Can this please get locked.? It's lame its going to happen so deal with it and if you have have been playing the game this long i doubt jump will break it for you. If it does then you were looking for a reason to quit. Jump haha it so minute that you really wanted to quite a longtime ago. So if you quit you will never play a game that has jump in it?????

[Focant]

Can this please get locked.? It's lame its going to happen so deal with it and if you have have been playing the game this long i doubt jump will break it for you. If it does then you were looking for a reason to quit. Jump haha it so minute that you really wanted to quite a longtime ago. So if you quit you will never play a game that has jump in it?????

The point of the forums is to discuss planned changes and suggest new ones. Wouldn't locking this be totally counter to the point of even having official forums?

[gifthorse]

Well that post was focused more on how XIV would benefit from other features being implemented in place of jump. It's not a platformer style game just in how it handles. It's a bit of an opinion yes but the basis for it is tangible. The game is just a lot slower paced. Rather then implement jump, implement strategy, tactics, cross-class combos, variety in combat, etc. Jumping wouldn't add near as much depth to a game like XIV as it would other mmos like WoW, just on the basis of how it handles and plays.

Now about exploration, this definitely harkens back to my first post. XIV is, relative to other mmos, closed. High cliffs that aren't scalable and are bordered by invisible walls, narrow paths, etc. are all aspects of the game. The world is, in the very way it was designed, confined. I used this analogy earlier but it'd be like jumping in a box. What good is the ability to jump if jumping takes you nowhere new? Nowhere you couldn't get without jumping? At best it provides shortcuts but that's not exactly exploring. I mean the only reason you can call jumping, in my mind anyways, a form of exploration in other games is because the only movement barrier is gravity, there are no "real" invisible walls holding you in. If you want to cliff dive into the ocean you can. In XIV, you can't and to allow that would require some hefty reworking of the game's zones.

I'm not saying jumping wouldn't mesh with the game because of my own idea of how the game "should" be, but on the basis of how it feels and maintaining that consistency. I'm not saying we turn it into "that" kind of game, but that it was from the get go intended to be that way and thus isn't built with jumping considered. I know people don't like the argument "It wasn't meant to have jump," but it's entirely true and shows up a lot in the way the game is designed. To have it mean anything at all in the game the game would need to be redesigned so that jumping meant something.

The style of dress for this party is formal, you can't show up in jeans and expect to fit in. D:

Well I can certainly see that the game was designed around a very linear experience. We are ushered from place to place in a very closed world. In order for the kind of exploration I talked of, things would have to be opened up a bit. The illlusion of freedom, and possibilities for exploration, all of which aren't presently in the game, would need to be added in order to make jumping sensical.

While this may sound a tall order for a game already released, there has already been talk of redeveloping zones, so changing some things to facilitate jumping isn't out of the realms of possibility. Or in any case, the game is free to move in new directions from here on out if it so chooses given that the direction it is currently taking is said by most to be an undesirable one.

With that said, a complete overhaul of the zones (or new zones) is not really needed to give impetus to the idea of jumping, as there are already areas within the game where jumping would benefit the player. There are areas which are only slightly out of reach where jumping would allow us to get to.

Of course the argument really comes down to: are platforming elements compatible with an MMORPG, and a Final Fantasy MMORPG at that? Well, to answer that, before just appealing to the tradition of MMORPGS, I think it pays to judge the idea on its own merits.

If you consider FFXI, most dungeon-type zones had treasure chests in them. To include something of that sort in FFXIV, but to place the chests in difficult-to-reach corners of the zones would add an element of exploration and discovery to the game as yet unheard of. So this is one example where jumping improves upon a typical feature of an MMO. I mean, treasure hunting in FFXI was quite a lucrative passtime for thiefs, but running around in circles waiting for chests to spawn isn't exactly a fair representation of treasure hunting. So not only would jumping add to the realism of the game in some respects, but such platforming elements would add more enjoyment to this specific activity and would also make it more of a risk/reward situation.

Having secret areas with rewards in them other than coffers is also a possibility. For example, how about areas with rare NMs, entranceways to new zones and instances, shortcuts? Jumping adds a host of opportunities that a game without it can't really imitate. The reward of finding and getting to such places is reduced to nothing when anyone can just walk there.

You can't hide anything in a game world where the only method of getting anywhere is walking. To give the game world more depth, it needs secrets. And currently it feels like there are none, and it can't even create any without locking out players by resorting to even more linear methods, locked doors etc.

If you treat this game as a beta, then jumping is something they could keep in mind for future content.

Okay, Gifthorse. I don't think you should write in this thread anymore. You have absolutely no reasoning behind your beliefs on why a manual jump adds depth. Let's go ahead and use your model of a flat narrow tunnel. How would jumping help that tunnel become more in depth as far as exploration concerns? Let's say that you have to jump now in order to scale the obstacles. Isn't that still a linear path considering you're coming from Point A and trying to get to Point B?

There are far more effective means to add a sense of exploration to this game that I have mentioned before. (In case you forgot. Climbing, Swimming, and maybe Flying.....Maybe Flying...) Jumping adds absolutely no depth like you seem to think. Again I challenge you to list five examples of how jump would be useful as a manual action....I remember you told me when having to jump a gap....That's one.....Four more!

And you're right. "If the only reason it is to be implemented is to clear certain obstacles, then climbing would be more aesthetically pleasing anyway" Couldn't agree with you more on this point of your post.

Also.....Just throwing it in there.......Jump wasn't used in FFXI and it never once was brought up to my knowledge. It was still a successful game even though they didn't add this feature...Care to explain?

I don't think I can do much more beyond reiterate my points which you are ignoring anyway, so I probably won't be posting here anymore. It's futile if you just ignore everything I say just so you can have the last word.

A path like the one i mentioned is a metaphor for the way zones are developed in FFXIV. At some point, a developer obviously has to develop the content to give jumping meaning. So I'm not saying getting "from point A to point B" with jumping is somehow mystically superior. I'm just saying, if you have one axis of motion, then that limits the amount of interesting "point Bs" you can have.

And I agree with all those other types of movements. Climbing and swimming are good too, along with flying.

To jump a gap is the only thing jumping can ever do in terms of exploration. The point isn't that it can do more than one thing, it's the fact that it opens up the game-world design for more interesting areas; areas that are more difficult to travel to than those currently in the game. And also, the difficulty in getting to such places isn't defined by the level of the mobs in the way.

[Focant]

Well I want to keep this post a bit shorter so I'll just say this. If you aren't opposed to suggesting SE rework the entire core of the game as far as jumping and navigating terrain are concerned, then I have no counter argument. My only comment on it is if jumping really warrants so much time and effort being put into sweeping changes. In my mind no, it doesn't seem a critical enough gameplay element for something like that. When you think of mmos you think of leveling, fighting, partying, running dungeons, etc. Those are worth the time, jumping not so much.

You also have to keep in mind mmos are consistent worlds. It's not like a single player game where you'll encounter hidden paths and secret areas a few times. Once they're discovered, once the patterns are understood, they no longer hold that luster they once had. Jumping would be the same way as far as hunting treasure and stuff is concerned, it becomes a needless obstacle. It'd be no different, ultimately, than putting a door in the way. I mean the secret beach in Valkurm, after a short time, wasn't really secret anymore. After that initial "Oh wow, a hidden path!" moment, it was just another area. Monsters scouring the hallways, the chance of mimics, things like that are dangerous aspects that always play a part. They're unpredictable and dealing with them can always maintain some element of fun.

The extreme response to what I said might be "Well they should just take away all obstacles if that's how you feel!" which isn't what I'm getting at at all. I'm just saying the level to which the game would grow because of jumping isn't as great as some would believe. Without some critical gameplay changes it'd be nothing more than a tacked on experience.

I suppose we could take Blade and Soul as an example. It's not out yet (that I know of) but we can probably analyze it a bit. Jumping was well integrated into the game. It's not only a way to explore but a way to play. It's used to navigate dungeons which were specifically designed for jumping, and they, if I recall correctly, created a whole mode where you can jump and run along walls and such. XIV isn't a game like that, it's just wasn't built to be that kind of experience.

[Rawry]

Ok first off id like to say L M F A O. This is one of the funniest threads i have ever read on the internet. The fact that people are getting so upset over "jumping" makes me pee.

With that said, Id like to say that I am for jumping. Like others have said, I feel jumping makes the game feel more realistic, less restrictive and just more fun. I will admit I enjoy jumping. I am one of those people that when taking a 10 minute walk from point A to point B.. when I get bored.. I randomly jump. GASP!!!!!! I know I know.. I need help. Jumping is the devil. don't judge me.

Ive played many MMOS in my life, most notably WOW, Aion And FFXI. In two of those three games they allowed random jumping. (Ill leave it to you guys to figure out which ones. while playing those games I've NEVER seen "100 people jumping around like idiots" as far as I've seen (Ive played wow for 5 years) it just doesn't happen unless someones making a video.. or something. which again.. I've never seen. and in all honestly that is the lamest reason I've ever heard of, to not allow something. it seems like a desperate attempt for people to get what they want. As for the lag.... many things cause lag.. perhaps we should get rid of them all! ORRRRR SE could fix the issue? that seems like a good idea.

I feel more "immersed" (That seems to be the buzz word of the day) when I'm able to jump. I feel restricted and tied down when im forced to march from point A to point B like a good little robot. I will admit that people jumping up on certain things like counters and getting in the way of NPCS is annoying. simple fix? put invisible walls there. there's no need for ppl to be getting behind counters anyways....

anyways whatever..that's my opinion. will i be annoyed if they don't let me jump? maybe.. will i throw a hissy fit and cry about it? hell no. it is just a game after all.

[Neptune]

In California they have rooms where smokers can go to smoke. They pack them all in there like animals and they can smoke up the whole room. I think we need to have a room like that for this forum. There should be a whole forum just for FFXI nuts where we can pack em in there so they can talk about not jumping, old classes, airships, chocobos, removing teleports, sawing their nuts off, and everything else they like.

Or maybe FFXIV could have a feature called Loyalty Mode where you had no anima, 7 bazaar slots total across your 2 retainers, couldn't equip other classes' abilities, and run speed reduced by 50%. Actually I think I may be on to something here.

EDIT: Also there would be airships but you'd have to wait 9 1/2 minutes everytime you wanted to ride one.

[Focant]

In California they have rooms where smokers can go to smoke. They pack them all in there like animals and they can smoke up the whole room. I think we need to have a room like that for this forum. There should be a whole forum just for FFXI nuts where we can pack em in there so they can talk about not jumping, old classes, airships, chocobos, removing teleports, sawing their nuts off, and everything else they like.

Or maybe FFXIV could have a feature called Loyalty Mode where you had no anima, 7 bazaar slots total across your 2 retainers, couldn't equip other classes' abilities, and run speed reduced by 50%. Actually I think I may be on to something here.

EDIT: Also there would be airships but you'd have to wait 9 1/2 minutes everytime you wanted to ride one.

Perhaps SE should build a room where all the sarcastic jokers who have nothing to actually contribute to a thread can be stuffed so they can yammer on and compete to see who's best at annoying everyone else. -_-

[Rawry]

Well I can certainly see that the game was designed around a very linear experience. We are ushered from place to place in a very closed world. In order for the kind of exploration I talked of, things would have to be opened up a bit. The illlusion of freedom, and possibilities for exploration, all of which aren't presently in the game, would need to be added in order to make jumping sensical.

While this may sound a tall order for a game already released, there has already been talk of redeveloping zones, so changing some things to facilitate jumping isn't out of the realms of possibility. Or in any case, the game is free to move in new directions from here on out if it so chooses given that the direction it is currently taking is said by most to be an undesirable one.

With that said, a complete overhaul of the zones (or new zones) is not really needed to give impetus to the idea of jumping, as there are already areas within the game where jumping would benefit the player. There are areas which are only slightly out of reach where jumping would allow us to get to.

Of course the argument really comes down to: are platforming elements compatible with an MMORPG, and a Final Fantasy MMORPG at that? Well, to answer that, before just appealing to the tradition of MMORPGS, I think it pays to judge the idea on its own merits.

If you consider FFXI, most dungeon-type zones had treasure chests in them. To include something of that sort in FFXIV, but to place the chests in difficult-to-reach corners of the zones would add an element of exploration and discovery to the game as yet unheard of. So this is one example where jumping improves upon a typical feature of an MMO. I mean, treasure hunting in FFXI was quite a lucrative passtime for thiefs, but running around in circles waiting for chests to spawn isn't exactly a fair representation of treasure hunting. So not only would jumping add to the realism of the game in some respects, but such platforming elements would add more enjoyment to this specific activity and would also make it more of a risk/reward situation.

Having secret areas with rewards in them other than coffers is also a possibility. For example, how about areas with rare NMs, entranceways to new zones and instances, shortcuts? Jumping adds a host of opportunities that a game without it can't really imitate. The reward of finding and getting to such places is reduced to nothing when anyone can just walk there.

You can't hide anything in a game world where the only method of getting anywhere is walking. To give the game world more depth, it needs secrets. And currently it feels like there are none, and it can't even create any without locking out players by resorting to even more linear methods, locked doors etc.

If you treat this game as a beta, then jumping is something they could keep in mind for future content.



I don't think I can do much more beyond reiterate my points which you are ignoring anyway, so I probably won't be posting here anymore. It's futile if you just ignore everything I say just so you can have the last word.

A path like the one i mentioned is a metaphor for the way zones are developed in FFXIV. At some point, a developer obviously has to develop the content to give jumping meaning. So I'm not saying getting "from point A to point B" with jumping is somehow mystically superior. I'm just saying, if you have one axis of motion, then that limits the amount of interesting "point Bs" you can have.

And I agree with all those other types of movements. Climbing and swimming are good too, along with flying.

To jump a gap is the only thing jumping can ever do in terms of exploration. The point isn't that it can do more than one thing, it's the fact that it opens up the game-world design for more interesting areas; areas that are more difficult to travel to than those currently in the game. And also, the difficulty in getting to such places isn't defined by the level of the mobs in the way.

Jumping can make getting from point A to point B.. much faster. Jumping up a hill sure beats walking 5 minutes around it.

[gifthorse]

Well I want to keep this post a bit shorter so I'll just say this. If you aren't opposed to suggesting SE rework the entire core of the game as far as jumping and navigating terrain are concerned, then I have no counter argument. My only comment on it is if jumping really warrants so much time and effort being put into sweeping changes. In my mind no, it doesn't seem a critical enough gameplay element for something like that. When you think of mmos you think of leveling, fighting, partying, running dungeons, etc. Those are worth the time, jumping not so much.

You also have to keep in mind mmos are consistent worlds. It's not like a single player game where you'll encounter hidden paths and secret areas a few times. Once they're discovered, once the patterns are understood, they no longer hold that luster they once had. Jumping would be the same way as far as hunting treasure and stuff is concerned, it becomes a needless obstacle. It'd be no different, ultimately, than putting a door in the way. I mean the secret beach in Valkurm, after a short time, wasn't really secret anymore. After that initial "Oh wow, a hidden path!" moment, it was just another area. Monsters scouring the hallways, the chance of mimics, things like that are dangerous aspects that always play a part. They're unpredictable and dealing with them can always maintain some element of fun.

The extreme response to what I said might be "Well they should just take away all obstacles if that's how you feel!" which isn't what I'm getting at at all. I'm just saying the level to which the game would grow because of jumping isn't as great as some would believe.

I realise it's asking a lot. And that is perhaps the only valid argument I can find for not implementing it. Development time doesn't grow on trees, after all.

But the fact remains that it can improve the game more than it can harm it.

I guess everyone has their own little opinions on what an MMO is "all about". Running dungeons, levelling up, and other such activities are all part of what makes the game, and probably something most people habitually associate with an MMO. But an MMO isn't just those things.

I think anything that adds something to a game should be considered when developing one. Just being able to jump between platforms in a dungeon with the possibility of missing, while could be frustrating if you're really angst-ridden, but it would also help flesh out that area.

The fact that everywhere in the world there is a dedicated path that leads you from A to B to C to D to A is unrealistic. At some point you're going to have to jump whilst travelling.

I don't know if you've watched Man vs. Wild, but he jumps all the time.

In California they have rooms where smokers can go to smoke. They pack them all in there like animals and they can smoke up the whole room. I think we need to have a room like that for this forum. There should be a whole forum just for FFXI nuts where we can pack em in there so they can talk about not jumping, old classes, airships, chocobos, removing teleports, sawing their nuts off, and everything else they like.

Or maybe FFXIV could have a feature called Loyalty Mode where you had no anima, 7 bazaar slots total across your 2 retainers, couldn't equip other classes' abilities, and run speed reduced by 50%. Actually I think I may be on to something here.

EDIT: Also there would be airships but you'd have to wait 9 1/2 minutes everytime you wanted to ride one.

Aw, that's so mean. They can't help the way they are.