[dev1008] About Jumping

[Malakhim]

I got it! You don't want to be tied to the ground, you say? Then let's bring "Flying" into this world! Let's bring out a pet, such as Valefor from FFX, that we can summon(Like NPC Companion's of FFXI or later on the Chocobo Whistle) to ride and fly around the maps. Doesn't that seem much more enjoyable than being able to jump up a rock in order to leave the ground!? You know what......I like this idea more than yours.

Listen dude, I thought of flying chocobos and put that in another thread before your Valefor idea.

Step off.

Although holy crap you just gave me an idea for how they could work summons in for an Evoker class.

[Nephera]

>implying they dont want jumping to get over terrain because people are impatient.

[Kimahri]

Listen dude, I thought of flying chocobos and put that in another thread before your Valefor idea.

Step off.

Although holy crap you just gave me an idea for how they could work summons in for an Evoker class.

Just make sure you give a list of credits and thank me personally when you write the tread! Hahaha!

And holy hell.....I'm not saying DONT PUT IN JUMP! I don't want it put in MANUALLY ONLY! Read the damn post.

[Harly]

As I have played FF11 for 6 years and FF14 now since Beta, I find that any form of jumping (even over small or short obstacles) would change the strategies of engaging enemies that the devs (enviromentalists) have built in, (other than what they now allow). I have often had to decide whether or not to engage a mob in a particular area because of the environmental limitaions. (Would I get caught by a low ledge or have to negotiate a fence or stone wall in order to engage or disengage & retreat from an enemy). IMO, If jumping is to be included, it needs to be specically related to accomplishing a quest or done only within an instance. Strategy and tactics are a part of what makes this game fun.

[Focant]

Mmm... I'm sorry I kinda zoned out reading some of the responses. Though, someone mentioned jumping opening new game design avenues and such, which I'll respond to. D:

This ties in a bit with my previous post, but XIV handles a bit differently than other mmos out there, and tends to focus on other styles of play. Other games like WoW incorporate jumping into the gameplay by, as someone mentioned, using it to avoid attacks, solve platforming puzzles, and the like, something XIV isn't really built to do. While there is nothing necessarily stopping XIV from doing something similar, a lot about the way the game handles would need to be altered. The game world isn't very conducive to free-form jumping and a lot of the timing mechanics have to do with ability activation instead. It's not the kind of game that promotes platforming.

I'm having a bit of trouble exactly describing what I mean so... as an analogy, it'd be like adding platforming elements to an rts game. XIV would probably be much better off adding new gameplay features and complexity elements in other areas. Improving inter-player communication and cooperation, ability timing, expanding on the limb targeting mechanic, etc. While jumping in some games adds a level of depth, it'd be nothing more than a gimmick in XIV, since the game's philosophy doesn't appear to put a lot of emphasis on movement and more on placement and timing.

The idea of expanding gameplay so that new events and such can be created is a good one and should definitely be looked into. However, jumping doesn't seem, in my mind, to be the proper vehicle for that trip. XIV isn't a fast paced, platformer style mmo like a lot of others out there. It's slower paced and likes to put more emphasis on timing and combos.

Might have been a bit hard to follow what I said lol. I'm having trouble thinking straight at the moment, so forgive me if that didn't come out very clearly.

Oh right, one last point. I think jumping would be fine but only in a confined way. Free-form jumping wouldn't mesh well with the game. Specific trigger points, abilities that are defensive in nature and respond to certain attacks by jumping, and the like I think would be fine. Having the space bar make you jump whenever you feel like it however, ultimately, wouldn't add any amount of depth. =/

[Laughlyn]

urrr...what is jump?

[Kimahri]

Mmm... I'm sorry I kinda zoned out reading some of the responses. Though, someone mentioned jumping opening new game design avenues and such, which I'll respond to. D:

This ties in a bit with my previous post, but XIV handles a bit differently than other mmos out there, and tends to focus on other styles of play. Other games like WoW incorporate jumping into the gameplay by, as someone mentioned, using it to avoid attacks, solve platforming puzzles, and the like, something XIV isn't really built to do. While there is nothing necessarily stopping XIV from doing something similar, a lot about the way the game handles would need to be altered. The game world isn't very conducive to free-form jumping and a lot of the timing mechanics have to do with ability activation instead. It's not the kind of game that promotes platforming.

I'm having a bit of trouble exactly describing what I mean so... as an analogy, it'd be like adding platforming elements to an rts game. XIV would probably be much better off adding new gameplay features and complexity elements in other areas. Improving inter-player communication and cooperation, ability timing, expanding on the limb targeting mechanic, etc. While jumping in some games adds a level of depth, it'd be nothing more than a gimmick in XIV, since the game's philosophy doesn't appear to put a lot of emphasis on movement and more on placement and timing.

The idea of expanding gameplay so that new events and such can be created is a good one and should definitely be looked into. However, jumping doesn't seem, in my mind, to be the proper vehicle for that trip. XIV isn't a fast paced, platformer style mmo like a lot of others out there. It's slower paced and likes to put more emphasis on timing and combos.

Might have been a bit hard to follow what I said lol. I'm having trouble thinking straight at the moment, so forgive me if that didn't come out very clearly.

Oh right, one last point. I think jumping would be fine but only in a confined way. Free-form jumping wouldn't mesh well with the game. Specific trigger points, abilities that are defensive in nature and respond to certain attacks by jumping, and the like I think would be fine. Having the space bar make you jump whenever you feel like it however, ultimately, wouldn't add any amount of depth. =/

Thank you. Case closed! Jumping adds no depth and no purpose other than a collision detection model.

[gifthorse]

Mmm... I'm sorry I kinda zoned out reading some of the responses. Though, someone mentioned jumping opening new game design avenues and such, which I'll respond to. D:

This ties in a bit with my previous post, but XIV handles a bit differently than other mmos out there, and tends to focus on other styles of play. Other games like WoW incorporate jumping into the gameplay by, as someone mentioned, using it to avoid attacks, solve platforming puzzles, and the like, something XIV isn't really built to do. While there is nothing necessarily stopping XIV from doing something similar, a lot about the way the game handles would need to be altered. The game world isn't very conducive to free-form jumping and a lot of the timing mechanics have to do with ability activation instead. It's not the kind of game that promotes platforming.

I'm having a bit of trouble exactly describing what I mean so... as an analogy, it'd be like adding platforming elements to an rts game. XIV would probably be much better off adding new gameplay features and complexity elements in other areas. Improving inter-player communication and cooperation, ability timing, expanding on the limb targeting mechanic, etc. While jumping in some games adds a level of depth, it'd be nothing more than a gimmick in XIV, since the game's philosophy doesn't appear to put a lot of emphasis on movement and more on placement and timing.

The idea of expanding gameplay so that new events and such can be created is a good one and should definitely be looked into. However, jumping doesn't seem, in my mind, to be the proper vehicle for that trip. XIV isn't a fast paced, platformer style mmo like a lot of others out there. It's slower paced and likes to put more emphasis on timing and combos.

Might have been a bit hard to follow what I said lol. I'm having trouble thinking straight at the moment, so forgive me if that didn't come out very clearly.

Oh right, one last point. I think jumping would be fine but only in a confined way. Free-form jumping wouldn't mesh well with the game. Specific trigger points, abilities that are defensive in nature and respond to certain attacks by jumping, and the like I think would be fine. Having the space bar make you jump whenever you feel like it however, ultimately, wouldn't add any amount of depth. =/

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but your whole point rests on your own interpretation of what FFXIV is as a game. And... to be honest, whether it's true or not, the fact remains that maybe nobody but a select few want to even play that game. The focus for combat in FFXIV is more centered on tactics and teamwork, which i agree with, but that has nothing to do with the mechanics of exploration, which is why I think jump should be implemented.

If your only resistance to jumping, which would add depth to exploration, is because it "wouldn't mesh with the game", then I have to ask why we would want to play a game that thinks exploration and linearity are compatible concepts?

They just aren't compatible. You can't expect to strike out on your own when the path only leads one way.

If you are placed on a flat, narrow, tunnel, with only one axis of movement, then how is that exploration? If you then add jumping which is automated and only in specific places, then that is also linear and limiting.

A fantasy MMO is supposed to be about adventure. Having the game dictate as to where you should explore defeats the purpose of exploration. Automatic jumping adds nothing and shouldn't even be implemented.

If the only reason it is to be implemented is to clear certain obstacles, then climbing would be more aesthetically pleasing anyway.

[Focant]

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but your whole point rests on your own interpretation of what FFXIV is as a game. And... to be honest, whether it's true or not, the fact remains that maybe nobody but a select few want to even play that game. The focus for combat in FFXIV is more centered on tactics and teamwork, which i agree with, but that has nothing to do with the mechanics of exploration, which is why I think jump should be implemented.

If your only resistance to jumping, which would add depth to exploration, is because it "wouldn't mesh with the game", then I have to ask why we would want to play a game that thinks exploration and linearity are compatible concepts?

They just aren't compatible. You can't expect to strike out on your own when the path only leads one way.

If you are placed on a flat, narrow, tunnel, with only one axis of movement, then how is that exploration? If you then add jumping which is automated and only in specific places, then that is also linear and limiting.

A fantasy MMO is supposed to be about adventure. Having the game dictate as to where you should explore defeats the purpose of exploration. Automatic jumping adds nothing and shouldn't even be implemented.

If the only reason it is to be implemented is to clear certain obstacles, then climbing would be more aesthetically pleasing anyway.

Well that post was focused more on how XIV would benefit from other features being implemented in place of jump. It's not a platformer style game just in how it handles. It's a bit of an opinion yes but the basis for it is tangible. The game is just a lot slower paced. Rather then implement jump, implement strategy, tactics, cross-class combos, variety in combat, etc. Jumping wouldn't add near as much depth to a game like XIV as it would other mmos like WoW, just on the basis of how it handles and plays.

Now about exploration, this definitely harkens back to my first post. XIV is, relative to other mmos, closed. High cliffs that aren't scalable and are bordered by invisible walls, narrow paths, etc. are all aspects of the game. The world is, in the very way it was designed, confined. I used this analogy earlier but it'd be like jumping in a box. What good is the ability to jump if jumping takes you nowhere new? Nowhere you couldn't get without jumping? At best it provides shortcuts but that's not exactly exploring. I mean the only reason you can call jumping, in my mind anyways, a form of exploration in other games is because the only movement barrier is gravity, there are no "real" invisible walls holding you in. If you want to cliff dive into the ocean you can. In XIV, you can't and to allow that would require some hefty reworking of the game's zones.

I'm not saying jumping wouldn't mesh with the game because of my own idea of how the game "should" be, but on the basis of how it feels and maintaining consistency with the apparent design philosophy behind it all. The game was clearly built without jumping in mind. I know people don't like the argument "It wasn't meant to have jump," but it's entirely true and shows up a lot in the way the game is designed. To have it mean anything at all in the game the game would need to be redesigned so that jumping meant something. If they're going to have to create more content to justify a new mechanic why not just skip that mechanic and instead create new ones that compliment what's already there?

The style of dress for this party is formal, you can't show up in jeans and expect to fit in. D:

[Nephera]

A fantasy MMO is supposed to be about adventure. Having the game dictate as to where you should explore defeats the purpose of exploration. Automatic jumping adds nothing and shouldn't even be implemented.

ah ho hum, there's something to think about.

Final fantasy has always been a venue for linear storytelling and the game mechanics are traditionally planned around that.

Buuuut the traditional mmo is more open ended and while you're limited to where you can go by level the choice is pretty much yours, some content can even be bypassed altogether.

XIV feels like it took both of those concepts and mashed them together very poorly, there have been examples of fairly linear mmos (Guild wars and phantasy star online come to mind) that have done very well for themselves. But XIV feels like it cant decide between linear storytelling(why we have a main quest line) and freedom of choice(why our only other option are some rather inconsequential class quests and the recently added quests which offer no sp).

and the friction between the two philosophies manifests itself as arguments about jump.

Terrain is rough and multileveled and has all sorts of paths and coves that feel like they should lead somewhere but they just dont. After an hour of walking you feel like you should see some sort of landmark or something that just isnt there. Off in the distance you can see structures that look interesting and curious but you can never get close to them, a lot of the terrain feels like it was meant to be climbed on (or its deliberately designed to waste your time when you're not on a road so you spend more time leveling, but lets give them the benefit of the doubt here). I cant proclaim to know the design philosophy behind the map, maybe it was a miscommunication or maybe there was more. I hate, HATE going back to using XI as a reference but if you compare the two, vanadiel had much smaller zones that were concise and to the point and when you put them side by side it looks like Eorzea had plans for something more.



TLDR:

The terrain was designed for non linear gameplay thats not currently in game. and is also rather unfinished,clearly.


edit: Also with egregious use of the copy paste tool.

double edit: i edited my post a lot because hurr i'm a durr.