Better Materia System

[Jynx]

Rng is not going to go away just because you don't like it. It's a integral part of not only games but everything in general, RNG will continue in the game as sure as I am the sun will rise tomorrow.

The trick is always in how visible the rng is.

[Shougun]

Rng is not going to go away just because you don't like it. It's a integral part of not only games but everything in general, RNG will continue in the game as sure as I am the sun will rise tomorrow.

The trick is always in how visible the rng is.

In some cases like criticals yes. But just saying "it has to be there because I say so*" is inadequate.
* "I am the sun and the moon, the stars. . ." that kind of speech has no reasoning lol thats why "because I said so".

And saying it will make the game easy because people can know what to expect is also such, because you know what to expect doesnt mean it has to be easy.

I've done Ifirit 35 (successes) times no weapons 4 totems, I've stopped doing ifirit until the system is changed - it is a waste of my time (if i was guaranteed a weapon between every 10 times or something like that then I would still doing it).

RNG is not required as the sun. While a modified RNG would at least be friendly.

The current system is unacceptable.

[NefGP]

On this tangent that RNG is is utterly evil and needs to be banished from the face of the earth. What then when you have completed everything what is the long term goal?

You kill Ifrit 10 times bam got your axe, screw ever touching him again becasue there is no reason to do so, unless it's to make a rare materia you can't get elsewhere it still puts a finite number on "HOW MANY TIMES I MUST DO ____" It essentially turns the entire god damn game into the essence of "Fetch quests that everyone hates"

Kill the Moogle king 10 times
Kill the Moogle king 20 times to get Shiny materia as well

I don't mind being able to progress while playing the game but I do like to leave some things up to chance, or at least give me a option where taking a chance can yeild better results than just slogging it out. People are so unhappy that there is a chance they might be "That guy" who gets burned by %'s and whatnot while I fear being "That guy" who didn't hop on the update wagon and can't find a single damn person to do X-new mission with because everyone is finished that shit and yelling at SE for the next patch.

Right, but the problem is Square-Enix as a whole (I'm lumping the bulk of XI in here, save for most of Abyssea which actually had very good drop rates all around - Matsui be praised lol) is that they just love to set the minimum too frigging low.

Yes I agree there needs to be some element of chance involved, or else it just becomes stale (unless the challenge is exceedingly great, such as Darnus Hard etc. where you can justify giving out the reward 100% either as a drop or quest reward).

Again I refer to a point in my post - it's not just that we're at the whims of the RNG, but we're subjected to it on multiple levels when trying to obtain materia.

Let's use Demilune Bhuf as an example.

It's a lv 48 weapon, so that means at least a Tier 3 Materia with a good chance of a tier 4. RNG #1. It's an Axe, so that means you can get 1 of 8 possibilities - RNG #2. Now of those 8 possibilities, only 1 is really worth big money (Savage Might), the rest are just decent~good. (Belts have a staggering 15 possibilities, which is completely absurd IMO - that really needs to get fixed.) Finally, there's the varrying parameters, RNG #3.

That's a hell of a lot of gambling going on for just a single item, which just isn't right. This is why I strongly feel the kinds of materia you can get based on the type of item being converted either needs to be significantly narrowed down, or give us some way of either choosing or at least influencing which materia we get.

Theoretically, I could score a bunch of savage might in a row and be filthy rich - or I could get nothing but DEX Materia and want to /wrist.

I pity anyone who tries to regularly SB and convert Cobalt Plate Belts (I don't think anyone has ever bothered to convert a Vanya? I mean why would you?), or God help you Primal Weapons...

Which is another thing. If you're going to let us convert certain rare items like that, they seriously need to only turn into 1 specific kind of materia, otherwise it's just ridiculous.

[Reika]

Right, but the problem is Square-Enix as a whole (I'm lumping the bulk of XI in here, save for most of Abyssea which actually had very good drop rates all around - Matsui be praised lol) is that they just love to set the minimum too frigging low.

Yes I agree there needs to be some element of chance involved, or else it just becomes stale (unless the challenge is exceedingly great, such as Darnus Hard etc. where you can justify giving out the reward 100% either as a drop or quest reward).

Again I refer to a point in my post - it's not just that we're at the whims of the RNG, but we're subjected to it on multiple levels when trying to obtain materia.

Let's use Demilune Bhuf as an example.

It's a lv 48 weapon, so that means at least a Tier 3 Materia with a good chance of a tier 4. RNG #1. It's an Axe, so that means you can get 1 of 8 possibilities - RNG #2. Now of those 8 possibilities, only 1 is really worth big money (Savage Might), the rest are just decent~good. (Belts have a staggering 15 possibilities, which is completely absurd IMO - that really needs to get fixed.) Finally, there's the varrying parameters, RNG #3.

That's a hell of a lot of gambling going on for just a single item, which just isn't right. This is why I strongly feel the kinds of materia you can get based on the type of item being converted either needs to be significantly narrowed down, or give us some way of either choosing or at least influencing which materia we get.

Theoretically, I could score a bunch of savage might in a row and be filthy rich - or I could get nothing but DEX Materia and want to /wrist.

I pity anyone who tries to regularly SB and convert Cobalt Plate Belts (I don't think anyone has ever bothered to convert a Vanya? I mean why would you?), or God help you Primal Weapons...

Which is another thing. If you're going to let us convert certain rare items like that, they seriously need to only turn into 1 specific kind of materia, otherwise it's just ridiculous.

Basicly, RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG . . . it doesnt need to be that way and needs to go.

A good way to try to get what type of materia we want to create without making it too easy is to get to select a catagory of materia when converting, and what materia in the category are viewed.

[Scratches]

I haven't read many posts beyond/except Oki's, so forgive me if I regurgitate ideas here...

I think the melding system is interesting as is, in theory (attaching materia becomes increasingly more difficult as you attempt to attach more), but in practice... well, it's never fun losing your gear just because you wanted to improve it. I understand that just losing the materia you're attempting to meld isn't serious enough a consequence, but losing the gear is too much, I think. Why not lose all materia attached to the item upon a meld failure? That's severe enough, no?

And as far as materia procurement goes, like many others, I too feel that the spiritbond system is, well, shit (pardon my French). It props up the gear and crafting markets, sure, but is that really enough justification for encouraging players to mindlessly grind mobs (or, even worse, use less-than-optimal gear in group content) just so they can transmute that gear into some random materia that might not even be one they could use (thus perpetuating the grind)?? I certainly don't think so...

A potentially better alternative to the spiritbond system (and one that possibly makes just as much sense in the game world) would be to have materia gained through DoL gathering -- Botany, Fishing, and Mining -- would it not?
A random chance (5%?) to find a piece of materia in a tree, a rocky outcrop, or inside a fish(??) (level-appropriate, of course... e.g., lvl 1 materia from lvl 1 notes) would work, right? Or maybe even a rare/random chance to find materia on world mobs, too.

Anything but the current system... please...

EDIT: Additionally, I don't have a problem with RNG as long as it's not completely obtuse like the current system of "get gear, use gear, destroy gear, you get what you get" ...the process is way too long/involved for a small chance to get what you want. Not to mention it's nothing but a sink... if you don't get what you want out of it, you have nothing to show -- no gains to show -- for the time/effort you put in.
RNG that's designed more towards the "ooh, a bonus!" kind, however, actually contribute positively to a game, I feel.

[Shougun]

I haven't read many posts beyond/except Oki's, so forgive me if I regurgitate ideas here...

I think the melding system is interesting as is, in theory (attaching materia becomes increasingly more difficult as you attempt to attach more), but in practice... well, it's never fun losing your gear just because you wanted to improve it. I understand that just losing the materia you're attempting to meld isn't serious enough a consequence, but losing the gear is too much, I think. Why not lose all materia attached to the item upon a meld failure? That's severe enough, no?

And as far as materia procurement goes, like many others, I too feel that the spiritbond system is, well, shit (pardon my French). It props up the gear and crafting markets, sure, but is that really enough justification for encouraging players to mindlessly grind mobs (or, even worse, use less-than-optimal gear in group content) just so they can transmute that gear into some random materia that might not even be one they could use (thus perpetuating the grind)?? I certainly don't think so...

A potentially better alternative to the spiritbond system (and one that possibly makes just as much sense in the game world) would be to have materia gained through DoL gathering -- Botany, Fishing, and Mining -- would it not?
A random chance (5%?) to find a piece of materia in a tree, a rocky outcrop, or inside a fish(??) (level-appropriate, of course... e.g., lvl 1 materia from lvl 1 notes) would work, right? Or maybe even a rare/random chance to find materia on world mobs, too.

Anything but the current system... please...

Read the first page and make more comments, .

But Yeah I totally understand the animosty to spirit binding - but its important to keep the economy turning and using the crafters is one way. Problem with gathers (in this version) is that they can be botted to reward infinite resources, while crafting is harder to be botted on as even if you do have infinite resources only so many people will buy the product which forces a maximum / minimum saturation range. In 2.0 apparently gathers will have GP (gathering points- like MP that returns over time) that they can use to increase chance of getting particular items - so changing materia to focus on gathers would be less of an issue but still one. Also it would make more sense that crafters make more money then gathers as crafters need the materials from gathers in order to make anything - so if you lost money crafting.. that would suck.

If you used gathering then botters could effect the economy more easily.

Perhaps its a cost worth taking, I wouldnt know till it happened.

One of the things I thought could happen is that you can turn the gear into essences (or materia) immediately after craft. This would prevent subpar fighting but keep the economy turning. The only thing is that this would reduce the amount of exp parties from 40-50 and so it would be harder to level once players are near max. (Like right now if you want to hit 50 you always join a SB party - if those go away then there needs to be another obvious leveling highway).

Another thing to wonder about is how SB parties will work in 2.0 since exp from monsters will be greatly reduced. Perhaps SE has something about SB hidden from us we will learn later.

[NefGP]

The problem isn't spirit bond or converting items - that's all well & good and a creative way of keeping the durable goods market viable in the long run.

The problem is the multi-layered use of the RNG at every stage from conversion to melding. There's simply too much luck involved, to the point where the system is exceedingly more frustrating than rewarding (it also drives the prices of certain materia up far higher than they ought to be).

[moriandrio]

Breaking Gear with multiple Materia melds is an essential point of the market, eleminating this with 100% melds would break the system. There are a few points that could be optimized but i don't see a reason to change the whole system. RNG always was part of games and it will be always part of FFXIV, they won't just remove it cause Shougun doesn't like it....

[Shougun]

Breaking Gear with multiple Materia melds is an essential point of the market, eleminating this with 100% melds would break the system. There are a few points that could be optimized but i don't see a reason to change the whole system. RNG always was part of games and it will be always part of FFXIV, they won't just remove it cause Shougun doesn't like it....

Made considerations of the removal of meld breaking, you obviously didn't fully read to make proper suggestions (or questions).

RNG doesn't have to be a part of anything, it is just a convenient tool to do many things - specially things you dont want the player to predict like critical hits. Because it has been a part of a system doesnt mean it has to be. It is very failed traditionalist logic that keeps us behind in the times.

(Edit: want to clear up, I'm not anti traditional logics - there are some great old logics and some newer forms, you have to pick from both. "Because it has been" is a horrible reasoning though.)

[Reika]

Breaking Gear with multiple Materia melds is an essential point of the market, eleminating this with 100% melds would break the system. There are a few points that could be optimized but i don't see a reason to change the whole system. RNG always was part of games and it will be always part of FFXIV, they won't just remove it cause Shougun doesn't like it....

It was also mentioned that the item doesnt always have to break on a fail....