Realm Reborn = downgrade?

[Scratches]

We just have different definitions of gameplay.

May I suggest reading a dictionary then, as that might help. There is only one concrete definition of gameplay, and, succinctly, that is how the game plays (hence, "gameplay"). But to help you out, here's the verbose definition, right out of the Oxford English Dictionary, too: "the plot of a computer or video game or the way that it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects". Emphasis is mine, of course.

Now, to help solidify that definition and disprove your silly notion that animation detail is either part of, affects, or just plain is gameplay (can't tell which you really believe, as you've danced between all three over your past 150 posts in this thread), here's an example: Super Mario Bros. (NES) vs New Super Mario Bros. (Wii).
The gameplay is the exact same in both versions: a 2-dimensional platformer in which the player (playing as either Mario, Luigi, or whomever) runs and jumps over (or on top of, in the case of koopas and goombas) obstacles with the aim of making it to the end of the stage as fast as possible and without dying, collecting various power-ups along the way to aid in that goal.
Graphics fidelity and smoothness of animation have absolutely no bearing on gameplay, else the NES version (and, dare I say, every other game on the platform as well) would have been an absolute, total failure because of "crap gameplay", due to the almost complete lack of lifelike animation. Just because Mario now looks at the player, twirls, winks, smiles, and throws up the peace sign when you complete a level, does a mid-air twist every third jump, or has a propeller-hat that actually spins now, does not mean the gameplay is improved.
Sure, in New Super Mario Bros., the fluid, lifelike animations give you better feedback as to what's going on ("Oh, he really must be on the edge of that platform, because he's swaying on one foot like he's about to lose his balance!" ...Wait, no, that's Sonic.), but that still does not change the gameplay -- the developers' intent is still a race to the end via platforming, not dance around all day.

Apologies if someone already covered the common sense, dictionary, or example approaches within the 10-20 pages that followed Nemy's above comment, but... I had to edumacate.

here's an idea : Why don't we make the whole game sprites, so that everyone can[...]

BRILLIANT IDEA! Then we wouldn't have to listen to people whine about 10% less animation! I loved IV and VI... bring it on.

Fuck this, I'm out.

Bye /wave

Can I have your stuff?

~~~~~~~~~~~

In regards to the team's decision to (temporarily?) forgo overly detailed animations in favor of polished gameplay mechanics, I support their decision. It's one of the (many?) ideals the original plan got wrong/went astray on, and the critical reception, Tanaka-san's subsequent stepping down (anyone know if he's doing any better, btw?), and the fact that ARR even exists supports it.
Sure, it looks amazing, and is probably an RPers wet-dream-come-true, but as many other games and MMOs can attest to, gameplay trumps visual fidelity... Every time. Just ask Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, World of Warcraft, or, for non-MMOs, League of Legends, Minecraft, or Words with Friends.
Three out of four of those MMOs still have not gone free2play and Everquest only very recently did, after almost a 15-year run, and all four of those games had nowhere near the insane amount of detail (even during their time) that Crystal Tools affords XIV.
League of Legends, while its graphics are quite "meh", boasts over 32 Million users.
Minecraft has over 40 Million users, almost 7.5 Million of which have bought the game.
Lastly, Words with Friends -- yes, f'ing Scrabble -- has been downloaded over 60 Million times on mobile platforms alone.

Do I think they could do well by further developing their animations or blending techniques? Of course, but is it more important than gameplay? Not a chance. I'm perfectly satisfied with the Gamescom footage (horrible grass and all *eyeroll*), if it means better, more meaningful, more engaging gameplay.

-- Apologies for the long-ish post, everyone

[Holland]

^ This man speaks the truth.

[lololink]

Yup Amen Scratches !

[Aion]

but-but....it looks like Korean MMO!

[Darshu]

Like many of you before me, these news from S-E saddens me deeply. I am now incredibly frustrated with the direction 2.0 is taking, and this has cemented all my fears regarding Yoshida's direction. Having said that, I do think every single thing is important.

This thread seems to be followed mainly by those who agree with the OP, and share her values. I identify with many who have posted here, to some almost word by word. Yet, what this reaction seems to be doing is creating a misconception I wouldn't want painted on the players who care about this. Animation is not the most important thing for a FF game, and even though probably no one has clearly stated it is, it's being seen as if it is.

To me, when the community shares its opinion on a subject in a heated manner, and it is shared by a fair amount of people, it means that subject has suddenly stood out as something being off the current standard the game has set for itself. We want it noticed because it is clearly detracting from the overall experience, which is the conjunction of all things that makes a game, a game. The fact that FF fans care so much about these things, such as a few others, while no other game community does show how unique that feature really is. I'm sure other games have their own appeal, and those unique things that aren't present in FF, and therefore not spoken off or cared for by us, are heavily defended by their fans on their respective games when they are threatened to be changed or disappear. Many of those who play this game share not this love for subtlety, immersion through a mixture of mood, realism and character, slow paced combat and exploration, greater sense of depth or accomplishment by doing things without having your hand held at all times, etc. But this is unique to this series. If what you care about the most can be found on another title, then you shouldn't disregard us and our complaints. The EVE community has a million things they'd hate to lose that we haven't even heard of, yet if we were to move to their world and play their game because something about it appeals to us, the moment we start imposing our own personal tastes over the uniqueness of EVE we will be destroying it. Granted, EVE has been building up for years, and XIV didn't truly have chance to solidify it's community, but it has started, and it's aggravating that they are treating 2.0 as a new beginning and seemingly ignoring what the players have cherished and enjoyed in the past 2 years.

While the animations clearly stand out in the current version (something I've argued before as being obviously a priority for the dev team, until I read this last post), the fact that it got noticeably downgraded for 2.0 and attracted our attention doesn't mean it is truly the most important thing. We are not trying to make the team focus all of their effort into fixing JUST the animations, or make the environment more lively, make NPCs move, make jumping smoother, etc. But we do want these things to have attention, as much as it is needed. And I think the urgency is shown by how many people truly get bothered by their current state. As it is right now, 2.0's animation are bothering the hell out of us, specially since it was, as I said, something that stood out in an already visually stunning game. Please don't act as if there's only one thing for the dev team to be focusing on.

If the gameplay was broken, we would be yelling about it too, as we actually have since day 1. There are many things that need to be fixed, but as people have been saying, most who disagree are creating false dilemmas when trying to state "one or the other" when the game is clearly a conjunction of things. We want a story driven experience that looks, sounds and plays amazingly well. You need to work on a lot of different things to achieve that, and gameplay mechanics is just one of those things.

The reason masterpieces in any art form are so sparse is precisely because most people can only see or care about a portion of a whole. What makes a great game, movie, music or painting is the attention to detail on every single aspect of what you are trying to do. The moment you ignore one thing for the sake of another you've already decided you don't want the best, but something that fits a specific limited purpose. If the goal for FFXIV is to be the best PvP experience currently on the market (or whatever else they're making) then they really should change their advertisements, because this isn't the reason why I bought the game.

[Starlord]

May I suggest reading a dictionary then, as that might help. There is only one concrete definition of gameplay, and, succinctly, that is how the game plays (hence, "gameplay"). But to help you out, here's the verbose definition, right out of the Oxford English Dictionary, too: "the plot of a computer or video game or the way that it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects". Emphasis is mine, of course.

Now, to help solidify that definition and disprove your silly notion that animation detail is either part of, affects, or just plain is gameplay (can't tell which you really believe, as you've danced between all three over your past 150 posts in this thread), here's an example: Super Mario Bros. (NES) vs New Super Mario Bros. (Wii).
The gameplay is the exact same in both versions: a 2-dimensional platformer in which the player (playing as either Mario, Luigi, or whomever) runs and jumps over (or on top of, in the case of koopas and goombas) obstacles with the aim of making it to the end of the stage as fast as possible and without dying, collecting various power-ups along the way to aid in that goal.
Graphics fidelity and smoothness of animation have absolutely no bearing on gameplay, else the NES version (and, dare I say, every other game on the platform as well) would have been an absolute, total failure because of "crap gameplay", due to the almost complete lack of lifelike animation. Just because Mario now looks at the player, twirls, winks, smiles, and throws up the peace sign when you complete a level, does a mid-air twist every third jump, or has a propeller-hat that actually spins now, does not mean the gameplay is improved.
Sure, in New Super Mario Bros., the fluid, lifelike animations give you better feedback as to what's going on ("Oh, he really must be on the edge of that platform, because he's swaying on one foot like he's about to lose his balance!" ...Wait, no, that's Sonic.), but that still does not change the gameplay -- the developers' intent is still a race to the end via platforming, not dance around all day.

Apologies if someone already covered the common sense, dictionary, or example approaches within the 10-20 pages that followed Nemy's above comment, but... I had to edumacate.


BRILLIANT IDEA! Then we wouldn't have to listen to people whine about 10% less animation! I loved IV and VI... bring it on.


Bye /wave

Can I have your stuff?

~~~~~~~~~~~

In regards to the team's decision to (temporarily?) forgo overly detailed animations in favor of polished gameplay mechanics, I support their decision. It's one of the (many?) ideals the original plan got wrong/went astray on, and the critical reception, Tanaka-san's subsequent stepping down (anyone know if he's doing any better, btw?), and the fact that ARR even exists supports it.
Sure, it looks amazing, and is probably an RPers wet-dream-come-true, but as many other games and MMOs can attest to, gameplay trumps visual fidelity... Every time. Just ask Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, World of Warcraft, or, for non-MMOs, League of Legends, Minecraft, or Words with Friends.
Three out of four of those MMOs still have not gone free2play and Everquest only very recently did, after almost a 15-year run, and all four of those games had nowhere near the insane amount of detail (even during their time) that Crystal Tools affords XIV.
League of Legends, while its graphics are quite "meh", boasts over 32 Million users.
Minecraft has over 40 Million users, almost 7.5 Million of which have bought the game.
Lastly, Words with Friends -- yes, f'ing Scrabble -- has been downloaded over 60 Million times on mobile platforms alone.

Do I think they could do well by further developing their animations or blending techniques? Of course, but is it more important than gameplay? Not a chance. I'm perfectly satisfied with the Gamescom footage (horrible grass and all *eyeroll*), if it means better, more meaningful, more engaging gameplay.

-- Apologies for the long-ish post, everyone

Your the best man! Couldn't have said it any better myself!

[Finuve]

Tera had great gameplay, but I already quit that game, its terrible other than the combat

[Jynx]

yeah that kind of things are good , and it also kills the exploration if you know where is everything .
Sorry for being aggresive .

It's fine people are passionate, no need to be sorry that you care about your stance on where you think the game should go. Just be willing to accept not everyone has the same priorities.

I personally think the lack of these animations harms the game more than it assists it. Of course some people may or may not agree, the point is I'm here making sure that I give it my all letting SE know what I think of the choice. It's never too late to change things, The 2.0 I'm looking forward to is a world that looks amazing and is a thrill to explore.

Raids, PVP, and what-not take a back-seat for me because the open-world means more to me than instanced content. I know I'm in a minority on this stance but it wont stop me from voicing my opinion and I really do hope everyone is here to voice their opinion and not what they think "the MMO Market!" will enjoy.

We as consumers shouldn't care about everyone else, we should care about what we enjoy. I don't see why any developer wouldn't want this kind of feedback when they ask for it. They don't need us to tell them instanced raids and content finder are something that worked in other MMO's. They do need us to say wether we think those things are good for the current consumers that are currently paying for their game.

[Starlord]

Well Jynx, if that is indeed the case then the Original FFXIV wouldn't have failed to majority of the population. Personally I think the " Pre-alpha" state animations are okay to me, but not everyone feels in that manner. But I do know that if they had to pick a Priority it would be gameplay, as much as I like pretty eyecandy, I rather see the game succeed then fail again.

Gameplay and Content are the two goals I think to achieve success, they can always add prettier animations down the line, but Gameplay and content at launch is essential to keep the players that try this game out. Animations and graphics only last so long till it gets stale, Gameplay and Content on the other hand focuses on enjoyably for a much longer period of time, and creates longevity in FFXIV for a change.

Animations can be worked on later down the line when there's about a 6 months to a year worth of content. However, if they don't focus on the right things at hand.. then Animations won't have a future for everyone to see in the long haul. Yes certain things like Backpeddling needs to be changed, but the pretty stuff can come when ARR is out for awhile and on its feet. By the looks of it the Maps itself look a lot better and more enjoyable to be in.

[Zaireeka2025]

While many of you here are arguing about whether the animation and gameplay affect each other in any meaningful way, I'm left wondering one simple question:

Why is it that ArenaNet has no problem coding Guild Wars 2 avatars with fluid stop/land animations while still maintaining lag-free gameplay? Here's your example. Also notice that, at about 5 minutes in, even in battle there is still somewhat of a foot positioning animation of about 1-2 seconds. Doesn't affect gameplay at all. Explain that SE.

Basically, if GW2 can do it, why the $%@# can't FFXIV?! SE needs to look at GW2 and stop looking at WoW for this and many other reasons.

For the trolls: Why don't I go play that game, you say? I do. I also play many other games.