Realm Reborn = downgrade?

**Hanabira** · 09-13-2012 10:41 AM

i would say that we arent good feedback providers because we are biased. they already have our money, they want other people's money

**Darshu** · 09-13-2012 11:03 AM

Is everyone here absolutely amazed about the content they are introducing, the battle system and everything gameplay related that the animation simply isn't important compared to it? Or are you just figuring it will be awesome just because?

How do you know the game's going to play the way you want it to play? How do you know we are not getting downgraded on something else besides the animations? Because that's exactly how I feel.

Seeing it constantly getting downgrades on every single aspect of the game, with very minor fixes and changes for the best (except the obvious fixes 1.0 needed and got) scares the shit out of me. We lost a lot of unique mechanics that we had from the beginning (some have been posted here already and I won't touch on it). You can criticize them as much as you want, but if you didn't have a working engine and server to test them on you can't say they were the problem with XIV. The main problems with FXIV were lack of content, horrible UI, no market and laggy response from the server. With minor nuisances such as lack of map functionality, arrows stacking to 99, etc. the game felt cumbersome and annoying for the most part.Most of these issues have not been resolved. Why? Because the coding is crap? Give me a break. They are taking it to a whole new direction, and that's the main reason they reworked everything.

As long as the majority doesn't see or care about the animations (or whatever else we come to complain about), FFXIV will succeed, and Yoshida will have absolutely NO NEED to improve upon it. Every single MMO out there proves it. Being popular doesn't mean it's good. These standards we are comparing to are all subjective, the success of a game depends a lot on luck alone, and this issue of great game vs what the majority wants will never be resolved.

But keep voicing your opinions. This is the only way we can change what's currently preferable by the majority. There was a time when art was solely based on doing the best you could. It doesn't work like that anymore. Games had their golden age, and now it seems to be over. There's too much at stake, and if something is unimportant for the majority, it simply won't make it. I understand the dev team, and seeing how successful most games out there are, without being masterpieces, they have every reason to follow that path.

I just don't see XIV going anywhere towards innovation. And that's something to be worried about. Every single one of you who do not care about the animation change have no reason to defend it being removed unless you knew the exact purpose it was removed for. You should defend it, and complain about any aspect of the game that is being downgraded, even if it's not the most important thing for you. The game is the sum of it's parts. If you truly want a great game, please ask for the very best (even if you can't see it, but know others in the community who do. No one wants bad gameplay for the sake of smooth animations). Question their motives, suggest new possibilities. Don't assume they are doing what they are doing with the greatest most sensible and necessary reason in mind just because they are Square-Enix. That doesn't say anything. If people do not care about the animations, that will be the reason to remove it. Conservation of energy. Simple as that.

**Xmbei** · 09-13-2012 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Darshu

Is everyone here absolutely amazed about the content they are introducing, the battle system and everything gameplay related that the animation simply isn't important compared to it? Or are you just figuring it will be awesome just because?

How do you know the game's going to play the way you want it to play? How do you know we are not getting downgraded on something else besides the animations? Because that's exactly how I feel.

Seeing it constantly getting downgrades on every single aspect of the game, with very minor fixes and changes for the best (except the obvious fixes 1.0 needed and got) scares the shit out of me. We lost a lot of unique mechanics that we had from the beginning (some have been posted here already and I won't touch on it). You can criticize them as much as you want, but if you didn't have a working engine and server to test them on you can't say they were the problem with XIV. The main problems with FXIV were lack of content, horrible UI, no market and laggy response from the server. With minor nuisances such as lack of map functionality, arrows stacking to 99, etc. the game felt cumbersome and annoying for the most part.Most of these issues have not been resolved. Why? Because the coding is crap? Give me a break. They are taking it to a whole new direction, and that's the main reason they reworked everything.

As long as the majority doesn't see or care about the animations (or whatever else we come to complain about), FFXIV will succeed, and Yoshida will have absolutely NO NEED to improve upon it. Every single MMO out there proves it. Being popular doesn't mean it's good. These standards we are comparing to are all subjective, the success of a game depends a lot on luck alone, and this issue of great game vs what the majority wants will never be resolved.

But keep voicing your opinions. This is the only way we can change what's currently preferable by the majority. There was a time when art was solely based on doing the best you could. It doesn't work like that anymore. Games had their golden age, and now it seems to be over. There's too much at stake, and if something is unimportant for the majority, it simply won't make it. I understand the dev team, and seeing how successful most games out there are, without being masterpieces, they have every reason to follow that path.

I just don't see XIV going anywhere towards innovation. And that's something to be worried about. Every single one of you who do not care about the animation change have no reason to defend it being removed unless you knew the exact purpose it was removed for. You should defend it, and complain about any aspect of the game that is being downgraded, even if it's not the most important thing for you. The game is the sum of it's parts. If you truly want a great game, please ask for the very best (even if you can't see it, but know others in the community who do. No one wants bad gameplay for the sake of smooth animations). Question their motives, suggest new possibilities. Don't assume they are doing what they are doing with the greatest most sensible and necessary reason in mind just because they are Square-Enix. That doesn't say anything. If people do not care about the animations, that will be the reason to remove it. Conservation of energy. Simple as that.

You do put up some interesting thoughts. But I also think your mind is fogged by elapsed time. We always look back and remember things we loved and forget feelings and opinions on things that were bad we blur those images. That leads me to my question.... What Ffxiv did you play at launch and for the past year? Yes I read parts were you said the negatives but i read it as if you loved the empty bad programmed game that led to its failure worldwide. We had the player polls and people asked for radical changes and so they gave us what we wanted. You are stating the fixes and content they gave us was worse then what we had at release. I could be entirely wrong and not how you feel, but thats how you came across in that post. Stating everything they have done to improve the game and make it feel final fantasy and enjoyable was a downgrade.

**Scratches** · 09-13-2012 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Onisake

If it takes another 8 weeks to bring the animations up to par so we can have our cake and eat it too, I think a lot of us are willing to wait, even those that say they aren't.

Yeah, totally. I'm sure everyone would be willing to wait, 8, 12, 16 weeks, whatever it'd take, right? Feature creep be damned, right?

Except they wouldn't.

First, upper management, Wada-san, the board of directors, and stakeholders are all expecting Yoshida-san to keep to the timetable and milestones he set way back in October. (Remember the PDFs that were released?)
This is what happens in the business world: if you tell someone you're going to have something done by X day/month/year, you better damn well have it done, or have a very good reason as to why it's not. Especially since they're pouring so much money and "honour" into this project... which is the first of its kind, by the way -- no one else in the history of gaming has ever dared try to revive an all-but-failed MMO (and with good reason: it's an even bigger gamble than the original release).

Second, gamers are not the people who matter right now, when teams make decisions like the one being discussed (complained about) here. Yes, they're making the game for us to enjoy, but it's still them who are making the game; not us. This is not design by committee. They may hit us up for ideas from time to time (like "what kind of uses would you like to see for jumping?"), but this is not one of those times.

Originally Posted by Nemy

False dilemma.

Originally Posted by Onisake

I would expect it is in SE's best interest to try to get both down pat before release.

Just because it's what you want, doesn't mean it's automagically in their best interest or even doable in this situation.

History (including 1.0) has shown that crisp, lasting, worthwhile gameplay is worth infinitely more than whatever shininess you can dream up -- graphics, audio, animation, everything. Now, I'm not sure if you guys understand this, but they also don't have 7, 5, or even 3 years to develop the game -- they had a little over a year and a half, and they still had to recreate a good deal of content too (for example, remember the maps? yeah, they were scrapped). So they have to pick and choose their battles; weigh the importance of various features; and decide which ones to put more time and manpower into. This was one of those decisions.

Accept it, be an adult about it, and deal with it. There is no "false dilemma" about it -- it's called "allocation of resources". And they don't have infinite resources, in case you forgot.

Originally Posted by Kallera

I have played wow. Know what else I did, I stopped playing wow after a few days, and have no intention to play wow ever again.

Cool story.

Originally Posted by Kallera

Or are the mages less deserving of such "sacrifices"?

Actually, they are less deserving than, say, a Dragoon. Know why?

Oh, you're gonna love this...

Because the mages can cast spells without having to stand on top of their target. Bet you didn't see that coming. :P

Originally Posted by Nemy

From a player's point of view, you have to also realise that we're not just potential customers, we are people who invested in this game in many different ways so taking away core elements of it shouldn't be made so lightly in my opinion. I really don't want to sound like a self-entitled idiot, but there is a difference here worth pointing out.

And our "investment" has been acknowledged and reciprocated with the Legacy Campaign and its lifetime discounted subscription price, as well as other in-game perks. You fail to realize that they didn't have to do that. And the fact that you still need more than that certainly does make you sound self-entitled, ungrateful, and even highly immature and child-like.

Originally Posted by Nemy

FOR THE HONOUR OF MY BELOVED SQUARE ENIX!

...Just like ^that does, too.
It also shows that you have no concept of what the idiom means or that it most certainly is an ad hominem attack.

"If a crazy serial killer who believes he is surrounded by Teletubbies argues that if you drop a ball, it'll fall to the ground, because gravity will pull the ball towards the Earth, is he wrong? Do the arguments become less valid because you think there's something wrong with the person behind the arguments? Will the ball start falling upwards from now on?"
- Dendrophilian of YouTube

smh

**Warlock** · 09-13-2012 03:19 PM

I'm getting a lil tired of reading the same handful of ppl complain and whine about a pre-alpha video and how they talk with this false authority ....its almost like bitching SE takes a penny from your pocket when they giving you a 1000$ check at the same time this thread is getting more annoying than the one recording questions for the live letter ...went through 20+ pages that had the same 2 idiots spamming dumbass questions

**Seirra_Lanzce** · 09-13-2012 03:29 PM

What in the world happen here?
Since i posted my opinion way back front
Time for me to post another opinion

Yes, i hate the decision that was made by the dev to forgo the animation instead of trying even more to do best in it.

But i also agree with their decision to do so for many other reason.

Now i just want to know if we can get a better character animations because i totally adore the current 1.0 version of the character animations. I maybe in the minority of this. But i hope the dev can give the reps some answers for us.

I wish, hope and pray that the animations will be much better.

On that matter i voice out to everyone that for me the current animation sequence is ok but need more smoothing out!

Hope this clear out some confussion on where i stand in my voice.

**Esk** · 09-13-2012 05:58 PM

I'm not gona jump to any conclusions till 2.0 is out and we have an idea of the plans for the first few months after.
But the more I see the more i think were just getting another run of the mill MMO from XIV in 2.0..
Which I'm sure will mean a reasonable player base just like Rift and many many other's.

But when it came out it did have Huge issues (UI,LAG, amount of content being horrible), but it was Different, and in a lot of good ways as well as those bad parts, which was what made me keep looking back in the hope the bad parts would get fix'd, and they did kinda...
Now if they actually get a good FF style story in it that alone might make it good for me, but it needs to stand out, and work too, not just be part of the crowed imo.
Things like the collision was OTT at 1.0 but it needed fix'ing not all but removing, Tera has proved it can work if done (well i think so), even if its only done when in combat not passive.

I could ramble on for ages but the OP was on about Graphics/animation more...

I would love to see a toggle to set the level of animation, so those with a PC that can handle the current level or more in 2.0 can have it, but i do think a lower level is needed for those people stuck with a console or low/mid end PC.

**Neptune** · 09-13-2012 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hanabira

i would say that we arent good feedback providers because we are biased. they already have our money, they want other people's money

You brought up a fantastic point but rather than go back on our inclinations let's see if there's any merit to our feelings, worthless as they may be to future game sales.

What did we like about 1.0 that made us buy it in the first place? It was something fresh and completely different from other MMOs. It had incredible graphics, featuring high res textures, lush motion captured animation, and incredibly detailed character/enemy models. It also had game systems that were totally off the beaten path.

So what has happened to recent games that copied WoW closely?

The Old Republic - copied WoW too closely, didn't bring enough new to the table, subscription model failed, 3/4s of purchasers gone.
The Secret World - Sold 200,000 copies, a failure as an MMO.
Kingdoms of Amalur MMO - No investor was willing to invest in this to finish it.

I'm not exactly up on other MMOs so I'm sure this list is incomplete. I think the message is that if Square just copies WoW it may be enough to get people's attention and gain acceptance, but not enough to be a compelling product for 6 months or more. So if they truly want a hit product they need to see the strengths of 1.0, not just erase its foundation with one carbon-copied from WoW. This is really about more than animations. I can see generic animations and down-poly'd character models as lacking in longetivity power.

So I wouldn't toss your relevance out the window so easily. SE has something to learn from 1.0 and from the people who kept playing it.

**Nemy** · 09-13-2012 08:45 PM

I think a lot of us are willing to wait