Integrity matters

[Kup]

Here are recent real‑world cases where grooming or recruitment happened in everyday public spaces:

• Restaurants & theatre meetups → Former ACT Attorney-General grooming a teen.
• Train station social hotspot → Nürnberg grooming network targeting minors.
• Barbershop → Genf exploitation ring using a business as a grooming hub.
• Gym / sports facility → U.S. gymnastics coach grooming athletes over years.

Surprise, surprise - the bad apples are everywhere. So after you closed down online gaming to save the kids, what's next on your list? Restaurants, train stations, barbershops, or gyms?

This is whataboutism and pointless. Nobody is advocating for shutting down the game or online gaming. You're also essentially saying "see how ridiculous it is to try and stop this behaviour? just let the predators be predators" and I don't know you but I'm going to guess you almost definitely don't actually feel that way. Most reasonable thinking people will also want things done about all of those cases. It is much harder to do anything about those scenarios than this one and they're frankly irrelevant to the discussion anyway.

As for the situation in game, it's unique in that it isn't the game itself solely creating and enabling this space for those individuals. It'd be naive and false to claim that these types of people wouldn't be around regardless. However, it is also the modding scene and very arguably more of the blame is with said modding scene by the very nature of what a lot of mods exist for, it cultivates, enables and even encourages people to seek out this space to indulge their weird fantasies. And yes, something should be done to curb how enabling and prevalent it is. Remember, as with all situations of this nature, those are just the cases we know about.

[Turtledeluxe]

This is whataboutism and pointless. Nobody is advocating for shutting down the game or online gaming. You're also essentially saying "see how ridiculous it is to try and stop this behaviour? just let the predators be predators" and I don't know you but I'm going to guess you almost definitely don't actually feel that way. Most reasonable thinking people will also want things done about all of those cases. It is much harder to do anything about those scenarios than this one and they're frankly irrelevant to the discussion anyway.

As for the situation in game, it's unique in that it isn't the game itself solely creating and enabling this space for those individuals. It'd be naive and false to claim that these types of people wouldn't be around regardless. However, it is also the modding scene and very arguably more of the blame is with said modding scene by the very nature of what a lot of mods exist for, it cultivates, enables and even encourages people to seek out this space to indulge their weird fantasies. And yes, something should be done to curb how enabling and prevalent it is. Remember, as with all situations of this nature, those are just the cases we know about.

I will just add this to your statement as I am happy to address general arguments rather than whether it happens or not. I am going to guess those places had proper security installed and/or are part of regular scheduled pass bys of security/police. Those employees now are aware and may have more education or know what signs to look for based on experience and police investigation uncovering. Local businesses and regular people tend to adapt, problem solve, mitigate. No one at those places is going to say "I need to see the results of the sentencing" if the police show up with a warrant and probable cause. No one is going to say "well they're everywhere, nothing we can do", unless they are having a really bad day, are mentally ill, or apparently trying to win arguments online over abuse victims. Most people/places change as a result of their experience, even in small, unconscious ways. If I touch a hot stove, for example. One final point is that online spaces (which are not local businesses) actually are already aware of this problem and all kinds of companies institute policies to protect at risk customers. There's more controllables within online spaces than there are with physical locations.To be explicit here, social media companies have federal mandates and tools. The solution wasn't shutting it down, making it unusuable, etc. Like what???

FFXIV is a place where people are so hopelessly addicted to the game that they perceive any and all criticism as hate speech, and stretch your conclusions to absurd maximums like "SE caused this", even when no one ever said that. The one post that said that, said "why does SE want this reputation" but that does not mean endorsement OR causation. It means they are not reactive in a way that can be perceived by the audience. Forgot to mention addressing the problem automatically means anti cheat or something drastic, as though nuance doesn't exist. We can't even acknowledge it happened, learn anything from it whatsoever.

My thoughts on the age ratings don't have to do with the content. It's always had to do with the actual age rating of what's in the game. If there's internal functions that require you to be 17 and up, I just think it makes sense that people 17 and up should be playing the game. That's not an argument, that's just my opinion, and I'm entitled to feel that way. But what is an argument is that 12 and up or 13 and up is way different from 17 and up, that is a direct age disparity.

[Aidorouge]

It looks like if you do a simple search, two investigations come up. The first is from 10 days ago and involves about 6 FFXIV players who met in game and formed a group recruiting others to talk about and send you know what. Obviously its within the modding community. The second involves one FFXIV player who engaged in grooming and an FFXIV streamer who (sort of?) aided them. Most streamers and their FCs use mods but not sure about this case.

The more recent one is from a plugin creator and it seems it happened in her own community, so props to her. Her particular case is exhaustive, even coordinating IP addresses to track down the ringleader. She also says in comments she found him in game and seen evidence he has been asking players in game if they have dogs for the purpose of making, let's just say, incredibly not legal content with them.

It was really easy to find this information. I assume all the people playing defense for the game ITT put on their big boy/girl pants and actually looked for this? It wasn't hard for me to find at all, especially since one went viral and has almost 1 million views. Could people ITT perhaps be acting in bad faith? I will assume you just put no effort into what you're debating here. As far as the case involving the six people, the creator is reporting them in game and has already reported all six individuals to the proper line. If you watch her video, you can really tell that she cares about this and performed some pretty exhaustive investigating to compile all of this together. It really shows you why we don't get reports like this all the time because it can actually require a specific awareness and resources to pull this off, as well as courage and coordination to put it out into the public and bring it to authorities.

Well see now here's the problem with "personal investigations" and "do your own research"...

When *I* looked into it after it got brought up, the claims were reporting over three times as many people were in the circle (so not just 6), that the plugin creator was complicit and involved (as in they were part of the guilty party, not trying to stop them), and there was no mention of bestiality at all. This is also the first I'm hearing of a different case involving a streamer, yet apparently it happened before the CSAM ring got busted.

Even the OP who brought it up stated "There is a scandal currently unfolding whereby the developer and several users of popular “modbeast” tools and assets are under criminal investigation for producing and distributing CSAM from children they met in game and then groomed."

That would suggest even they were operating on missing (or even falsified) information if they believed that the plugin creator was among the accused, and not assisting with the takedown instead. (And again, no mention of animals being involved, only children.) Whether that misinformation was because they simply ran with what they had without waiting for more data or because they or someone else purposefully twisted the details to make mod makers out to be as bad as the mod users I can't say, but it's why I tend to treat "news" on social media with a healthy dose of skepticism because its incredibly easy for people to make things up or even just stretch the truth, especially if they have a narrative they want to spin.

Concerns of criminal activity happening more often than we realize and this was simply the one time it got caught are valid, but that's unfortunately true of any online space or real life in general. Which goes back to the issue that if I'm expected to treat 100% of the playerbase with suspicion (if not paranoia) because of the actions of a few, then I might as well treat everyone like that no matter where I encounter them because "you can never be too sure".

People can and should be diligent, but not every plume of smoke means fire, and on social media in particular people are more likely to grab axes and not water because they've got one to grind, not because they're particularly concerned about anyone's safety.
+++

In my view, this should already have been done if at all possible.

And I'm definitely inclined to agree, but then I fully admit I'm biased against having minors in most online games in general because such spaces can do very little to prevent their exposure to various things they shouldn't be, they can only react after the fact. And it's not even just sexualized incidents, as a much MUCH higher amount of "just smack talk" often involves suggesting violence on others, including the ever popular "go kill yourself" or that sexual comments are not even targeted towards the minor themselves, like the equally popular "I had sex with your mom". And then there's all the doxxing threats out there.

I've never argued against online spaces being unsuitable for minors though, I've only contested that the percentage of people that would cause problems for them are 90-100% of the population and that generally, the majority of us in this game or any other are decent people. However, even when being decent I don't like the idea of having to walk on further eggshells OR have to deal with people just ITCHING to accuse me or someone else of wrong-doing because there might be a minor around.

Even as things stand people are very reluctant to socialize in FF14 out of concern they'll be jailed for saying "Hello" because it has the word "hell" in it, and personally speaking I already have a rule that if I find out if someone is underage in an MMO, I immediately ghost and mute them even if that causes friction within whatever groups we're a part of because I have chosen to completely shun the child just for being one.

To be honest I was surprised you agreed about upping the rating to Mature, as I was expecting you to instead suggest that FF14 should be scrubbed until it fits within a Teen rating again even if that meant censoring elements of the game on top of tightening the ToS further regarding player conduct (which can include modding). Usually whenever discussions pop up elsewhere about places becoming child unfriendly when they started off suitable for all audiences, there's a bigger push to make people tone it down instead of just accepting that kids just have to leave then.

[Turtledeluxe]

When *I* looked into it after it got brought up, the claims were reporting over three times as many people were in the circle (so not just 6), that the plugin creator was complicit and involved (as in they were part of the guilty party, not trying to stop them), and there was no mention of bestiality at all. This is also the first I'm hearing of a different case involving a streamer, yet apparently it happened before the CSAM ring got busted.

I'm not familiar with this. So I guess that makes 3 known cases now. Tbh after ingesting hours of gorey details, I really don't want to talk about this subject anymore. But just the record, I don't know what coffee or TC are talking about. I looked these up independently and found them. I also heard of a ring being busted when I first joined pre EW so, as far as I know, this is not new. And to be honest, it's not exactly surprising. Mods exist in the shadows in this game. And when people feel they operate invisibly (as the group did, they even had a "super secret group" on Matrix and messages they thought couldn't be decrypted) that makes crime easier. That's why I find this verbal policy regarding mods so troubling. This game is operating on four dimensions at once and it's just not healthy. That doesn't mean it has to shut down or ban all mods. It's SEs job, not mine or yours, to implement solutions. The very least they could do, in my view, is show some awareness and set a standard here, as more cases continue to come to light. That doesn't mean labeling the game a haven, but it does at least dissuade people and show that they are willing to partner with any investigations and so on.

honest I was surprised you agreed about upping the rating to Mature, as I was expecting you to instead suggest that FF14 should be scrubbed until it fits within a Teen rating again even if that meant censoring elements of the game on top of tightening the ToS further regarding player conduct (which can include modding). Usually whenever discussions pop up elsewhere about places becoming child unfriendly when they started off suitable for all audiences, there's a bigger push to make people tone it down instead of just accepting that kids just have to leave then.

To be honest I was surprised I didn't think of it. But honestly, does anyone playing this game genuinely care if we lose people under 17? I think the only people who care are SE, criminals, or maybe a handful of people who play with a family member. That's not my wheelhouse, afaik I have never met a minor in game. It wouldn't change my game experience at all to make this a mature game, and I'm not sure whose game experience it would change. Something for a Square Enix to consider, maybe.

It's also worth noting, as someone else said, that's not even a perfect solution, though. I don't know. I feel like I've said my piece regarding this as I didn't really get into the thread initially to discuss this and frankly, the evidence is gross.

[VanillaWafer]

I really don't appreciate that my points are being misconstrued as me "defending Square Enix," because I don't need to. My position is pretty simple: specific cases of criminal behavior should be taken seriously, investigated, and reported. I don't dispute that these things can happen within FFXIV's communities.

What I question is the leap from those cases to broader claims about prevalence, the entire community, or what Square Enix's policies caused or enabled. I think SE can be criticized and held accountable where appropriate without treating every inference about their responsibility as established fact.

That's not defending Square Enix. It's asking that the evidence match the claim. Just like how the solution has to match the problem.

Also, I'm not blaming victims for not speaking up, nor am I asking them to. I'm saying that their decision not to report publicly doesn't prevent us from being careful about what we claim as established fact. Again, we're at the allegation phase of what happened, the best we can do is wait and see. We can acknowledge that something may have happened without assuming we know every detail of it or what broader conclusions it supports.

Questioning the evidence for a broader claim isn't victim blaming.


... I would have responded sooner, but I got married, today.

[Carighan]

What I question is the leap from those cases to broader claims about prevalence, the entire community, or what Square Enix's policies caused or enabled. I think SE can be criticized and held accountable where appropriate without treating every inference about their responsibility as established fact.

That's not defending Square Enix. It's asking that the evidence match the claim. Just like how the solution has to match the problem.

As a simple point of real-world comparison, those who say "Just ban everything!" should keep in mind that statistically speaking, we can prevent ~90% of all violent crimes by removing all men from society. Yes. Just get rid of all men.

Would that solve the problem? Of course. Does it also quite amiably show how absurd a too-broad solution is for a highly-specific problem? Of course.

[WeissTuna]

How did we get here, man.

[Nokuushi]

I don't post here, but recently came after break, because of DT.

Game is getting worse and worse. Soon in EC it will hit shit tier.
I played this game since ARR, and 10-yen Yoshida will put this game in grave, alongside Mr.Ozma who don't play his own game.
JP playerbase is at boiling point cussing out Ozma and seeing how this game basically devolves. It's sad to see.

It's made for new generation of players.

[CCheshire]

As a simple point of real-world comparison, those who say "Just ban everything!" should keep in mind that statistically speaking, we can prevent ~90% of all violent crimes by removing all men from society. Yes. Just get rid of all men.

Would that solve the problem? Of course. Does it also quite amiably show how absurd a too-broad solution is for a highly-specific problem? Of course.

So what do the last 10% do? OK, I'm joking, but I feel like we needed them after the horrible derailed posts.

I don't post here, but recently came after break, because of DT.

Game is getting worse and worse. Soon in EC it will hit shit tier.
I played this game since ARR, and 10-yen Yoshida will put this game in grave, alongside Mr.Ozma who don't play his own game.
JP playerbase is at boiling point cussing out Ozma and seeing how this game basically devolves. It's sad to see.

It's made for new generation of players.

So, what do you do for fun? In my exp MMO are for the older folks like I'm in my mid-30s and when I started, it was like 20s y.o. players since you needed some kind of money to pay for the base game, expansions, or subs too vs the F2P/gacha hellscape in 2026.

[Carighan]

So, what do you do for fun? In my exp MMO are for the older folks like I'm in my mid-30s and when I started, it was like 20s y.o. players since you needed some kind of money to pay for the base game, expansions, or subs too vs the F2P/gacha hellscape in 2026.

Kinda same for me come to think of it. Was about 17 when I briefly looked into M59, then my uncle talked my parents into getting one of the first flatrates in our city and got me onto EQ1. Definitely not a game a lot of players would enjoy nowadays, and I can't believe in hindsight that this was amazing back then, but it was also a very different world and playing an MMORPG was an interesting way to socialize in a time before chat apps, smartphone and hence always-reachable-friends.