Integrity matters

[Aidorouge]

There's an important distinction that's been getting blurred in this discussion. A game depicting sexual, violent, or otherwise objectionable behavior ≠ an endorsement of that behavior. I mean, using the Sastasha example you provided: You, the adventurer/Warrior of Light, had to deal with that threat, which resulted in the end of their (digital) lives. That was the only option given to you, there were no other endings to explore, thankfully.

I'm reminded of how outraged parents were back in the day over DOOM for depicting hell and demons, even though whole the point of the game was to KILL THEM ALL DEAD, not join them. You'd think that would have been worthy of praise to make Satan and his ilk kiss the business end of a shotgun, but much like here, you have some people who come up with their own radical, and very often wrong, interpretation of creator intent.

In general its why I don't take the pearl-clutching over content in video games (or any fictional media) seriously because I went through the days of Jack Thompson and similar, and just like back then I don't consider "depiction = endorsement" otherwise wouldn't the people criticizing said content in this game be "incriminating" themselves? Why are they willfully giving subscription money to a group of developers they have already judged and condemned are CSAM enablers and anyone playing the game is complicit in those acts? And lord knows what other fictional media they might engage with that has equally icky or worse things going on.

That's the danger of throwing out wide nets, it's a good way to get tangled up themselves.
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That's a reasonable thing to want. If someone doesn't want to encounter sexualized or otherwise uncomfortable content, having filtering or visibility options seems like a much more practical solution than treating the existence of that content as evidence that the game or everyone participating in it is doing something wrong.

You can be uncomfortable with certain content without needing to argue that it shouldn't exist at all.

Aye, and I even said as much in that topic that I'm fine with people throwing a tarp over my character to remove the bikini armor. But I also say that within the same context that I'm also fine if some weirdo is making my character look hyper-sexualized on their screen because it both instances I have no idea what the other player is doing with my character model, nor would I consider it indicative of that player as a person because "it's just pixels and polygons".

I mean, if I'm supposed to approach this from the angle of "well, that weirdo is probably a creep and stalker you don't want to play with" then odds are good I'm not going to consider the prudent player a grand time to hang out with either because they sound boring and possibly abrasive. But the idea, of course, is not to immediately come to any sort of judgement until they give reason to.

[jomas_45]

I'm still playing this game because they're getting a bit better. My friends argued me through the story up to Stormblood (mostly by pointing out that they haven't changed tone of old expacs since they were put out). I nearly quit then. It's been getting more equality in how men and women are portrayed since Shadowbringers started. I'm not necessarily prudish, I just like my sexy nakedness to be equal. It's not in the first three expacs.

And yes, Hauchefant is more of a lush in Japanese apparently. I hate him in English, so I might have quit if he were that bad in English. I was comparing to German to show that you don't have to make women and men unequal to make a story interesting.

[Turtledeluxe]

It's hypocritical for me personally to single out one thing for XYZ while giving something else a free pass for doing XYZ also.

I wasn't keeping up with anyone saying Blizzard is somehow > SE. Not saying it didn't happen but there's nothing in the original post about Blizzard. I could see someone saying WoW isn't as gross as this game is and, as someone who has never touched WoW, all I can say is that I assume that's true because of all MMO games I have played, XIV has the weirdest community easily. I'll just leave at weird. I don't know anything about that company, but I understand where you're coming from as far as responding to a claim like that.

As far as a standard, i'd like to address that in combination with this claim that endorsement is a factor and there's evidence lacking in this regard. I think these are impossible things to prove and not really necessary. Isn't what we're actually talking about the trajectory of this game?

According to one user, the player base gave this notoriously slow reactive team, who took three years to make an actual job recently, only one expansion worth of time to implement net code fixes. The director of the game comes out and says, "hey, I don't mind if you do this as long as no one's reporting it, and we don't see it." Players then take it upon themselves to start creating mods. So doesn't this trajectory show that relatively early in the game, the precedent was already set that plugins are okay? Doesn't it show that the dev team likely became incentivized to just allow it? Because players basically showed that, hey, we're willing to fix problems for you very quickly. Doesn't it also show that people might feel some permission to do other things outside the terms of service? Is that really so much of a stretch to suggest? Mods are already implicated in very questionable things. The most popular streamer in the game was caught on live using nude mods.

So I think we're past the point of needing a causation. It just feels like a distraction. Let me go back to my first post and repeat that it's too late. We're talking about a decade of this trajectory. They could implement some fixes like a dev-approved toolkit or visibility options for people, etc but I don't see that happening. I don't think they really care. It all goes back to the very beginning, where the policy is, "hey, I don't really care about all that unless it goes public". It's all a vicious cycle.

[Carighan]

The point is that it makes sexual deviance more likely than not, or more convenient than not, especially in game that uses realistic human proportions and animations.

I wonder, is this a transitive assessment? As in, can the same observation be made in other contexts?

That is, does the presence of frequent murder and violence in FFXIV lead to more aggressive behavior between and among players? After all the game glorifies violence in display and execution way more than sexual elements, and it does so with near ubiquity. It stands to reason that what you say actually exists as an effect, people should be crazy violent from the constant exposure, yes?

I would propose an alternative explanation: What you say doesn't exist, you're just talking based on vibes that are rooted rooted, as always with these accusations, in an inability to admit your own shortcomings in mental processing of topics you struggle with despite how the topic in itself should not make you struggle. Sexual exposure, sensuality, BDSM, nothing about this is abnormal. You perceive it that way because western media has trained you to consider this taboo, curiously enough people getting shot in the head or carved up is fine in media, and we consider that way more normal because our society has ingrained this as something normal and acceptable to show and see. You will also note how Vamp Fatale shows both these elements (sex and violence) and yet instinctively, the sex part is the one you got hung up on. That says a lot about you, yourself. You know that?

[Kup]

Why anyone is focusing on what the game itself does narratively or with depictions of characters to begin with is beyond me, it's entirely irrelevant and nothing that hasn't been done in gaming since at least the PS1 days, it's not uncommon in MMO's either. It's much more to the point and worthy of discourse as to what the reality of the player to player activities are and how enabling they are in various aspects. I've already commented and talked about how the in game cultures have shifted and the sort of behaviours that are quite prevalent these days that is solely due to mods and the extent of how far they enable players to act out their fantasies. That is the main issue where any sort of sexual deviance is concerned.

[VanillaWafer]

I wasn't keeping up with anyone saying Blizzard is somehow > SE. Not saying it didn't happen but there's nothing in the original post about Blizzard. I could see someone saying WoW isn't as gross as this game is and, as someone who has never touched WoW, all I can say is that I assume that's true because of all MMO games I have played, XIV has the weirdest community easily. I'll just leave at weird. I don't know anything about that company, but I understand where you're coming from as far as responding to a claim like that.

Like someone mentioned before, there's a difference between a scandal within the development company and allegations about a community of players.

Blizzard went through investigations, lawsuits, leadership changes, and significant organizational reforms following the misconduct allegations.

So I don't really understand the argument that people who play WoW are somehow endorsing what happened at Blizzard. We can acknowledge what happened without treating millions of current players as responsible for or supportive of the actions of people who worked there.

I'd apply the same standard to FFXIV: judge the documented actions of the people actually responsible rather than assigning that responsibility to everyone who plays the game. I know that this is probably hard to do because we're still at the allegation phase.

So I think we're past the point of needing a causation. It just feels like a distraction. Let me go back to my first post and repeat that it's too late. We're talking about a decade of this trajectory. They could implement some fixes like a dev-approved toolkit or visibility options for people, etc but I don't see that happening. I don't think they really care. It all goes back to the very beginning, where the policy is, "hey, I don't really care about all that unless it goes public". It's all a vicious cycle.

The trajectory is worth discussing, but I don't think we can skip causation entirely. There's “plugins became normalized” and “plugins enabled criminal behavior.”

If we're talking about integrity, I'd rather focus on what Square Enix can actually do to fix the situation now. Better server-side detection of abnormal behavior seems like a good place to start, since it targets the cheating itself rather than whatever software happens to be running on someone's PC.

[VanillaWafer]

Why anyone is focusing on what the game itself does narratively or with depictions of characters to begin with is beyond me, it's entirely irrelevant and nothing that hasn't been done in gaming since at least the PS1 days, it's not uncommon in MMO's either. It's much more to the point and worthy of discourse as to what the reality of the player to player activities are and how enabling they are in various aspects. I've already commented and talked about how the in game cultures have shifted and the sort of behaviours that are quite prevalent these days that is solely due to mods and the extent of how far they enable players to act out their fantasies. That is the main issue where any sort of sexual deviance is concerned.

That's fair. What the game depicts narratively is one thing; what players actually do to each other is another.

I'd only be cautious about saying those behaviors are “solely due to mods.” Mods may enable or facilitate certain things, but establishing that they're the cause of broader changes in player behavior is a separate question. You don't really need mods to ERP, for example.

If we're concerned about player-to-player conduct, that's probably where the discussion should focus: what behaviors are actually happening, what enables them, and what Square Enix can reasonably do about them.

That's a much stronger framework than arguing about whether Sastasha dialogue or skimpy glamours are inherently indicative of anything.

[Turtledeluxe]

I wonder, is this a transitive assessment? As in, can the same observation be made in other contexts?

That is, does the presence of frequent murder and violence in FFXIV lead to more aggressive behavior between and among players? After all the game glorifies violence in display and execution way more than sexual elements, and it does so with near ubiquity. It stands to reason that what you say actually exists as an effect, people should be crazy violent from the constant exposure, yes?

I would propose an alternative explanation: What you say doesn't exist, you're just talking based on vibes that are rooted rooted, as always with these accusations, in an inability to admit your own shortcomings in mental processing of topics you struggle with despite how the topic in itself should not make you struggle. Sexual exposure, sensuality, BDSM, nothing about this is abnormal. You perceive it that way because western media has trained you to consider this taboo, curiously enough people getting shot in the head or carved up is fine in media, and we consider that way more normal because our society has ingrained this as something normal and acceptable to show and see. You will also note how Vamp Fatale shows both these elements (sex and violence) and yet instinctively, the sex part is the one you got hung up on. That says a lot about you, yourself. You know that?

Grooming is something that can happen in the game while murder is not, so no it actually doesn't work. This is a really creepy take considering grooming has occurred in this game. I am not at all correlating sexuality with weirdness or badness. I think your focus on people instead of actual arguments shows the modus operandi of the never leaving the game crew of which you are a part of. That is to defame, stalk and trivialize anyone criticizing the game. If the thread was about cases where regions of Final Fantasy XIV players was experiencing widespread violence, I would likely argue the same thing. That's not what we are talking about. If this topic was about sexual activity between real adult human beings, I would have no problem with two people indulging in BDSM. The only problem in this game is that we can't really verify who we're dealing with due to the anonymity, and also, one of the races are very small like children.

There's also no direct causation or endorsement. If the rule is "as long as I don't see it, and it isn't reported" my only point is the developers have some culpability in the development of the ecosystem today. If there's sexual elements built into glam or animations, it doesn't mean they directly cause it, it just makes it theoretically more likely in the game itself. To expound here just so you're not confused: for example if there's an array of BDSM gear to wear vs not, odds are some people will end up wearing BDSM gear. Maybe they could wear it for stylistic choice, I'd wager some of those people will use it for sexual content in the game. You're conflating these claims with real life activity that, as far as I know hasn't occurred in physical proximity (violence) and also with 100% direct causation.

I'm also not the one who brought up the sexual culture/predator situation. Other people did, and I only got involved because there were some strange arguments happening excusing it, and/or denying it happened. It's not the subject of every post I make. The one hyper focused and defensive about is yourself. And frankly, if you mod yourself to be a muscle dommy mommy, good for you. Just be responsible about it. It's weird to consider that a hot take. Remember when I said this fan base is weird? This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're still going on about Vamp when the reason I brought them up has nothing to do with any of this at all. You hijacked the post completely and took it out of context and are trying to make it this thing about having an issue with sexuality.


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[Turtledeluxe]

The trajectory is worth discussing, but I don't think we can skip causation entirely. There's “plugins became normalized” and “plugins enabled criminal behavior.”

If we're talking about integrity, I'd rather focus on what Square Enix can actually do to fix the situation now. Better server-side detection of abnormal behavior seems like a good place to start, since it targets the cheating itself rather than whatever software happens to be running on someone's PC.

Just for the record, I am not endorsing any claims related to blaming the population for the actions of developers. I only meant I can see where that person is coming from insofar as needing to compare the companies. It's not whataboutism, it's a legitimate comparison on the basis of someone else bringing up Blizzard, in this way, specifically. That's what they're claiming and if that's true, I understand. As far as causation, as I keep saying, I don't think it can be directly proven. This is also why I don't understand all these posts crying because I brought up Vamp. First of all, I didn't bring her up only because of the context, it's also very much because of the date it was published. That's what the exchange was about, has FFXIV sexual content lessened over time. I was merely arguing it hasn't, and in fact it's become arguably more aggressive when we are talking about bring the audience of the raid into climax. As far as sexual glam and sexual story being built into the game, I think the reason it's more problematic in this game than others is based on the races, the realism, and the developer's lax attitude toward this culture in general. The lax attitude is probably the biggest issue here, because technically it's giving permission to actions the dev team probably didn't anticipate. I am aware this comes across as "mods cause criminal behavior" but that's not quite what I'm arguing. I'm arguing the lax attitude gives permission to break the ToS in general as long as no one finds out/reports. I don't see how one can assume this only includes noble, utility centric actions? Don't you also have to take responsibility for nude plugins for example? And then how much culpability do you have when that nude plugin is used for criminal activity? If these are not questions worth raising, I'd like to hear why not.

If the answer is that we can't prove developer intent, I think it's a valid take and certainly, it would take very strong evidence to legally hold SE accountable as such. That's why all my arguments aren't legal standard, but rather focus on unintended consequences of their position.

[VanillaWafer]

There's also no direct causation or endorsement. If the rule is "as long as I don't see it, and it isn't reported" my only point is the developers have some culpability in the development of the ecosystem today. If there's sexual elements built into glam or animations, it doesn't mean they directly cause it, it just makes it theoretically more likely in the game itself. You're conflating these claims with real life activity that, as far as I know hasn't occurred in physical proximity (violence) and also with 100% direct causation.

I get what you're saying here. You're saying developer policies and permissive systems can shape the environment and potentially make certain behaviors more likely.

Where I disagree is that “theoretically more likely” isn't enough to establish that the game is actually contributing to those behaviors. We'd need evidence.

That's why I keep coming back to: what specific behavior are we talking about, what evidence shows the game enables it, and what could SQEX actually do about it?

I'm also not the one who brought up the predator situation. Other people did, and I only got involved because there were some strange arguments happening excusing it, and/or denying it happened.

As far as I'm aware, I haven't excused or denied the alleged criminal activity. I also don't recall seeing anyone else here make the claim that people were excusing or denying the criminal activity. If that's referring to something specific, please share with the rest of the class.

What I've questioned is the leap from alleged crimes by specific people to broader claims about FFXIV's entire community or modding culture.

I'm willing to discuss whether the game's systems or policies contribute to these problems, but I think we should distinguish what's documented from what's being inferred. And if we're concerned about sweeping or inflammatory accusations, that standard has to apply to everyone—including yourself.