Integrity matters

[Kaurhz]

To those that seemingly HATE the crafting plug so damn much with burning suffocating uncontrollable rage:

What's the "law abiding non-sinful Christian" way to do it?? To use an online solver or copy-paste the Gillionarie solution into a Macro and spam the same one button for 5 hours?? That's better??

Does anyone actually press the 13 buttons manually every single time they're crafting anything? Even back on PS3 I was already copying Macros from third party websites.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem if the feature were natively in the game to actually support the chaining of macros, or automatic batch-crafting to HQ -- Basically if this were the developers intended means of actually consuming the content.

What the plugin does is -- It supports that, but it also allows for the recipe to be queued multiple times, so in effect you can download the plugin, select a recipe (materials permitting), tell it what you want to do, and then just... Not actually play the game, which ultimately goes beyond the developers intention for the system.

It's really not that difficult to see why a lot of people would be enraged by it....

Personally regardless of what I see as the "law abiding, non-sinful christian way of doing it" -- Using the plugin, have it do the recipe for you, and queue subsequent recipes, without a shred of input from the end-user -- and plopping your stats into Raphael, getting a macro, copying it in-game, then manually selecting the recipe, and queuing each macro manually as intended by the developers... Are not even close to being the same thing.

[FateHollow]

I agree with everything OP said it's all true and has caused me to be less interested in the game. I know it's all personal achievement but what does personal achievement matter if I can just bot everything to obtain it? At this point it's kind of like why shouldn't I cheat? Can't beat em, join em. That's what I say.

[Evermomo]

Nobody thinks that it would remove all automation and botting, things that have existed in every MMO ever. People are saying that it's far more widespread and accessible than in other games. Most people don't want to cheat or bot in other games as there's a good chance they'll get banned. It's also a lot more effort to set up and utilise those tools as they have to search online for third party programs, sus them out and usually pay for them if they're actually worth a damn.

A closed mod system absolutely will drastically reduce the number of people automating various systems. As for everyone's worst case of an anticheat (I don't want one either), it wouldn't kill the game no matter how many people think otherwise. The game was fine before plugins came along and while there would be a large number of people who leave as they've come specifically for the type of social gameplay they enable, most of us are well aware they could be taken from us any time and will continue to play regardless.

I genuinely understand why you think this, but it is not true. Automation tools are simpler, more universal, and more accessible than any moderation tool will ever be, because they do not depend on the programming architecture of any one game, or any software platform, and in fact have no specific interest in FFXIV or even in video games.

It's in the best interest of botters and cheaters to be obscure, so most of the automation that happens, you, I and SE will never know about. This third-party tool being more visible to you does not prove that it is more impactful, and in fact the opposite may be true.

One can, of course, argue that these tools shouldn't exist or be used in principle, that the visibility itself is audacious, and I agree. But I think the proposed solutions come with their own risks and downsides that are being underestimated, and the efficacy of these solutions is being overestimated. Not to mention video games are about to be hit by agentic/post processing AI, which for the record makes me very nervous, but might render all of this a moot point.

[DiaDeem]

plopping your stats into Raphael, getting a macro, copying it in-game, then manually selecting the recipe, and queuing each macro manually as intended by the developers... Are not even close to being the same thing.

I promise you: The devs did not intend for you to go to the Raphael or Gillionaire sites and use third party recipe solutions. You've arbitrarily decided you're fine with that use of third party tools, and to be clear: I don't mind, nor am I trying to "get you" with this, but your reply doesn't help me understand why the plug is so hated.

Here's what I think is the true core issue: XIV heavily incentivizes mass crafting practices. Items for the Market Board, Collectibles, Ishgard Restoration, Skysteel/Crystalline tools, Cosmic Exploration... they all pretty much require hundreds of crafts and mass production through a system that's not built for mass production. You could build a real life size LEGO house and live in it, but those bricks aren't designed to do that.

They built a system that rewards care, knowledge and slow progress, but then they want you to make 200 "Oddly Specific Ultra Rare Whatever" just for one component, a single step out of several for a Relic, or just to be able to make gear for your friends, let alone try to sell in the MB.

XIV's current crafting content isn't engaging, challenging or interesting. It's incredibly tedious. Nobody presses all the buttons of a craft manually, except maybe for Custom Deliveries. Besides that, whether you're using websites or a plug, you're just optimizing the process to shorten the time you have to engage with the system.

What do I think they should they do?? Just build the automation into the game. It's either that, or re-design the entire system and 13 years of content built around mass production.

And no: I don't freaking condone RMT farms. But RMT farms don't care if this plug exists or not. If they're using it at all, at most you'd annoy them for a day or two, then they'd automize through OS-level local auto-clickers or some other thing.

Also, this:

One can, of course, argue that these tools shouldn't exist or be used in principle, that the visibility itself is audacious, and I agree. But I think the proposed solutions come with their own risks and downsides that are being underestimated, and the efficacy of these solutions is being overestimated. Not to mention video games are about to be hit by agentic/post processing AI, which for the record makes me very nervous, but might render all of this a moot point.

[CCheshire]

Mods were not big until well into Shadowbringers which launched in 2019 and didn't truly become popular until a certain plugin functionality to make modding extremely simple was created. They were extremely niche and kept quiet before that.

What a strange thing to say that people who enjoy MMOs should find a new hobby if they don't like people cheating in the game. It's a fairly standard stance across the genre. People don't like cheaters. Most games don't have tools so readily available and take so little action towards egregious use of them. There is a big difference between someone paying a sub and playing the game as intended (or with a little cosmetic and qol modding) vs paying a sub and then modding it however they like to be able to cheat at the game.

My main point is that if playing FFXIV is still stressful, then OP can focus on tasks they have actual control over, like their reactions and new hobbies if they started to resent achievements overall instead of re-posting how it's unfair that OP can't add anti-cheat to the game even if they are aware it does nothing at all other than make others miserable.

If they re-posted this every single week leading up to EC's release date, then they still have no zero control over other players' devices, PC/mods, games, bots/RMT, or anything that would meaningfully esp after Yoshi-p said "Don't Talk about mods or use them to harass others in-game."

Also, I can see cheating take some things away from human players like PVP/crafting rankings and maybe losing gil to under-cutters, but achievements points have no real value beyond those who collect them for fun and they are infinite like if someone joined the FT today they can still get most of them the same way I have a few of them and I've played since the release of ARR.

Then to be upset at the idea of "integrity" in them is like a drop in the ocean of legal ways to pay others to carry anyone through most content using gil in the PF and I don't see anyone saying actually we should ban mercs because someone out there might have bought all the Ult clears, savage loot, and all the mounts too therefore they aren't deserving enough. I mean, if OP is upset that someone got the 20k hoard achievement unfairly, then IDK why does it matter to them again? Anyone can get it still or find a different achievement to strive towards.

Also, if anyone is harassing anyone over lack of DPS then this is a rude/toxic issue and can be reported for harassment in duties, which I've done in the past and the GMs have accepted the report too.

[Kaurhz]

I promise you: The devs did not intend for you to go to the Raphael or Gillionaire sites and use third party recipe solutions. You've arbitrarily decided you're fine with that use of third party tools, and to be clear: I don't mind, nor am I trying to "get you" with this, but your reply doesn't help me understand why the plug is so hated.

Here's what I think is the true core issue: XIV heavily incentivizes mass crafting practices. Items for the Market Board, Collectibles, Ishgard Restoration, Skysteel/Crystalline tools, Cosmic Exploration... they all pretty much require hundreds of crafts and mass production through a system that's not built for mass production. You could build a real life size LEGO house and live in it, but those bricks aren't designed to do that.

They built a system that rewards care, knowledge and slow progress, but then they want you to make 200 "Oddly Specific Ultra Rare Whatever" just for one component, a single step out of several for a Relic, or just to be able to make gear for your friends, let alone try to sell in the MB.

XIV's current crafting content isn't engaging, challenging or interesting. It's incredibly tedious. Nobody presses all the buttons of a craft manually, except maybe for Custom Deliveries. Besides that, whether you're using websites or a plug, you're just optimizing the process to shorten the time you have to engage with the system.

What do I think they should they do?? Just built the automation into the game. It's either that, or re-design the entire system and 13 years of content built around mass production.

And no: I don't freaking condone RMT farms. But RMT farms don't care if this plug exists or not. If they're using it at all, at most you'd annoy them for a day or two, then they'd automize through OS-level local auto-clickers or some other thing.

Also, this:

No given website outside of the lodestone (edit: or official published resources by them) is intended, the point is intended gameplay. Intended or unintended resources are irrelevant (edit: as they do nothing to alter gameplay itself).

However, there is a massive difference between using a website, e.g., Teamcraft/Raphael and using a plugin to automate gameplay. Whether you use Raphael, Teamcraft, Carbuncle Plushy, or the Lulu tools website, they don't alter what the intended gameplay is (even if they don't intend for those resources).

I do not disagree with the core issue, but people would still automate or bot (beyond what the game would intend even at that level) even if we were given a single button which mass crafts everything into the highest quality.

Ideally, they would encourage manual crafting, and forego with the whole "farm scrip for eternity" -- ARR unironically has this the best at the moment, where the focus is on obtaining the materials to craft the item, then you craft the item and get your recipe book, or Lucis tool.

My personal solution would be... Gut the abilities aside from core quality and progress building actions, re-implement WWYW, which promotes manual crafting. Forego this whole scrip venture thing.. It's rotten, have the focus be on obtaining the materials, and give people a single expert recipe to obtain scrip gear or master recipe books.

[DiaDeem]

I do not disagree with the core issue, but people would still automate or bot (beyond what the game would intend even at that level) even if we were given a single button which mass crafts everything into the highest quality.

Ideally, they would encourage manual crafting, and forego with the whole "farm scrip for eternity" -- ARR unironically has this the best at the moment, where the focus is on obtaining the materials to craft the item, then you craft the item and get your recipe book, or Lucis tool.

That's fair enough.

My Tim Hortons is here tho! Good to chat with you

[MayuAmakura]

Achievements did lose their meaning a long time ago when devs started introducing super inflated stupid achievements that are mindless grinds and then you feel like you accomplished nothing. This asks for botting.

Is botting that big and serious? I'd say yes. If you are using these tools then it's very easy to recognize when other person is using as well. From instant train chat, to "I somehow knew that S rank spawned this instant second and made a reply this instant second". Cosmic exploration is botting that for sure, it's a boring mindless grind so of course people will do that and then 24/7 afk while watching youtube. It's a natural thing to happen when devs have nothing interesting in this game. It's all about leves / fates.

PvP - yes people do bot and use auto rotation plugins even in high elo. It's very easy to recognize when somebody does use them. Instant guards, machinist snipe or auto-guard when they snipe you and so on. These are all available publicly for you.

As for titles, only the "Necromancer" title is still the one that people care about and cheer on. Nothing else matters.

But I do disagree with the "modbeast" thing. Let's be real, nobody is forcing you to install mods or pair with people who use them. This isn't an issue. If they use it, they use it. You aren't forced into downloading and using them. You cannot see them. So why even be bothered? The game has been stagnating on content pretty much, longer patches, bad balance changes, and more. We all play in a hope that this might get fixed but I think we can all conclude that it never will.

[caffe_macchiato]

I wonder when people will address the large CSAM rings that have formed in FFXIV as a result of the modding community. People flock to FFXIV because they can mod child characters and then use those connections to share real-world CSAM because they found “their people”. Hundreds of people were shown to be in just one of the CSAM rings uncovered lately that were run by and made for kiddie modders. FFXIV has become a haven for pedophiles. Why does Square Enix want this reputation? FFXIV players have already shown up on Chris Hansen’s latest show.

[TheDustyOne]

Modbeast culture

What started years ago as innocent user interface tweaks has metastasized like a cancer into what we all refer to as “modbeasting”, players who have overhauled their character models, animations and environments into hyper-sexualised or distorted forms using client injectors. Defenders love to say “it’s client-side, it doesn’t hurt you”, but that misses the point entirely. It fractures the shared universe we all inhabit, and entrenches parallel ecosystems and cults of personality that enables and fosters egregious conduct.

There have been many scandals with these types of player, but I don’t think a lot of people realise how deep it goes. It’s far more than just billboards in Texas or X-rated Bluesky and Twitter accounts. There is a scandal currently unfolding whereby the developer and several users of popular “modbeast” tools and assets are under criminal investigation for producing and distributing CSAM from children they met in game and then groomed.

Is this really the sort of culture and conduct we want to encourage and condone? These individuals often hide behind a sexual identity to shield themselves from criticism and have their friends, orbiters and supporters mass report, stalk and harass anybody they disagree with or do not like. If you are ever on the receiving end of that, I feel sorry for you, because the moderation in this game is pathetic.

While I find myself disagreeing with some of your points (of which others in this thread have already comment on, so I won't comment further), I find myself in full agreement here. The amount of people I see whenever I visit Crystal DC whose first instinct is to ask for a sync code is annoying, and when I say I have none, they immediately ghost and pretend I don't exist. We may exist in the same space, but we're in completely different games at that point. A major part of playing an MMO over a single-player game or most other multiplayer games is the fact we share the same world and space. If one player's client is so radically different from someone else, that world is no longer shared.

I don't usually care if someone only lightly mods their game (a texture upgrade, minor tweaks to vanilla gear, etc.), but if the end result is completely alien in aesthetic, why not play Second Life at that point?

I won't comment too much on the CSAM issue, just that the moment I see some variation of "Lalafell are adults too", or (Loporrit) in someone's search info, makes me very suspicious of that individual. Yes I know they are adults in-universe, but using that as justification for players to potentially sexualise them is disturbing.