So, when is VPR getting nerfs? (Frontline)

[Divinemights]

I don't think nerfing Viper will do anything, they should just change the mode so you cannot premade anymore like in ranked CC.
Then it would be completly random and more fun for casuals.
I still do not get it why Frontline was not like that from the beginning, where you cannot queue with a premade party and you only get random teammates.

What if… just what if… you actually found people to play Frontline with?
You know… like what an MMO is supposed to be?
I keep seeing people act like there’s some invisible force preventing them from making a party if they truly believe premades are such an overwhelming advantage.

• Party Finder exists.
• Friends lists exist.
• Free Companies exist.
• Linkshells exist.

If you think coordinated groups are strong, then coordinate too.
There’s always a way.
Even something as simple as a target countdown macro already improves coordination more than most random groups ever attempt.
That’s not exploiting the game.
That’s literally participating in the social aspect of an MMO.

[Hazelx3]

Yea, right?? Who wants to party up and play with FC members or their friends in pvp?! in an MMO?!?? That's so lame.

You can't go premade in ranked CC either and in unranked you can only queue up as a 2-people team, so it would make sense to me that the other modes handle it the same,
and the problem with "this premade team is too OP" wouldn't exist. You can't expect from someone who starts the game, looks for many friends to play Frontline with, most do it for the daily quest like me and in the end, its a story based game, that you mostly can play solo. Altough there is one downside to random parties, that it can be very frustrating if you get in the wrong teams, similar to ranked CC in low ranks, you will always get some people who have no clue what they're doing. I do not take these PvP modes serious, if it was serious PvP then it would be a 2v2 match where you can choose your teampartner, but not a PvP with more than 4 people or even more than 100, that's pure Chaos. Most people that I know in this game do not enjoy PvP, they are pure PvE players for a reason

[ThreeBeastSmile]

You can't go premade in ranked CC either and in unranked you can only queue up as a 2-people team, so it would make sense to me that the other modes handle it the same,
and the problem with "this premade team is too OP" wouldn't exist. You can't expect from someone who starts the game, looks for many friends to play Frontline with, most do it for the daily quest like me and in the end, its a story based game, that you mostly can play solo. Altough there is one downside to random parties, that it can be very frustrating if you get in the wrong teams, similar to ranked CC in low ranks, you will always get some people who have no clue what they're doing. I do not take these PvP modes serious, if it was serious PvP then it would be a 2v2 match where you can choose your teampartner, but not a PvP with more than 4 people or even more than 100, that's pure Chaos. Most people that I know in this game do not enjoy PvP, they are pure PvE players for a reason

I have basically no-one left in here who remotely enjoys PvP in this game either, I still... dare I say it, like it. Sometimes.

Dealing with randoms is just another test in my books, how well can I play to make up for whether or not the rest of the team gels well? If I make the call early enough, that no, no nobody can be relied on (lol), I can still put holes into the enemy. I've got enough practice. Then it's less about what my team is doing and fully committing to reading enemy behaviour instead. It's just a bit of exercise innit. Maybe it's just me. I don't like to roll over easily. It's very difficult to get me doing a vote to surrender in any game. So maybe my threshold is a bit different.

If there were a 2v2 I wouldn't even be able to participate as I don't have a duo partner in this game. Roping in anybody would just be the same as solo queuing.

There's also the matter of how premade modes in MMOs tend to struggle with numbers too, opposed to any solo queues. In here I can't imagine how difficult it'd be to have a premade queue going for the same amount of hours a day as a solo queue.

ED: I guess what I'm saying is, I don't exactly get why so many are acting like quitters when dealing with things alone.

[Scintilla]

There's also the matter of how premade modes in MMOs tend to struggle with numbers too, opposed to any solo queues. In here I can't imagine how difficult it'd be to have a premade queue going for the same amount of hours a day as a solo queue.

This is the biggest issue with suggestions to split premade / veteran and casual queues. It just wouldn't work as there's not enough PvP-regulars to cover queue requirements. While the upcoming cross DC system might help, I'm still doubtful that even that will enable a veteran-only queue, let alone a premade-only queue.

Dealing with randoms is just another test in my books, how well can I play to make up for whether or not the rest of the team gels well? If I make the call early enough, that no, no nobody can be relied on (lol), I can still put holes into the enemy.

It's definitely just another test of how well can I (and the few others with a brain cell) carry this team? And there's no doubt that just one player alone can make a premade's job notably harder and really play a huge part in helping their team. However, the issue remains that the vast majority of teams don't want to be helped.

You might see the premade's alliance sitting atop a nearby cliff waiting for your alliance to gather at ice or on the other enemy before they jump in for the wipe. You might've marked the DRK. You might call this warning that they're incoming. You might call another warning as they start charging. You might MNK LB the DRK etc. to buy your team escape time. But if your team are ignoring every single one of these notices (as happens more often than not), sadly my outcome is now pretty much decided on the poor play from my team. Hence, I can see the frustration with rouletters: I gave you everything you needed, you just ignored it, acted surprised at what just happened, and then waste the rest of the game complaining about premades in chat. Doesn't remotely cross their minds that they might be the issue.
But, such teams don't deserve to win. So, as frustrating as it can be, I think I'd prefer to lose the game than to see us win on pure fluke. I won't ever throw the game and will continue to counter the premade as much as I can, but a victory would be hollow

[Ankhira]

Lots of script kiddies using bards because they're both trash at the game and bard has one of the lowest skill floor of any job in PvP.

Easy to see at the start of a match before any player is even capable to focus target, or have any reason to when any dash ability used within their cast range will trigger their script to use silence/knockback if ready.

Keep an eye on them the rest of the match and you'll see that every time they use their CC, it is usually within 0.1 seconds of any dash ability.

I didn't believe you with this, but playing Monk the past few days in FL, I have to agree. The second I use my dash, literally within the millisecond I use it, I get silenced by Bards. I'd say they play well if it was a 1v1/2v2 whatever, but in a massive group fight, each time, without fail. So pathetic to use scripts like this man

[ChrysOCE]

I didn't believe you with this, but playing Monk the past few days in FL, I have to agree. The second I use my dash, literally within the millisecond I use it, I get silenced by Bards. I'd say they play well if it was a 1v1/2v2 whatever, but in a massive group fight, each time, without fail. So pathetic to use scripts like this man

Definitely not happening on Primal. I main MNK now and I am not seeing that happen. Though, if you are playing MNK, odds are you will be marked by the opposing team. And any good bard will (or should) have you on watch. If you are using your dash to go into a crowd, is it with a group of others? what happens when you dash with DRK/DNC/GNB/VPR diving too?

I am aware of a couple 3rd party tools. None of which allow for automatic ability usage against someone else's use of an ability, I am pretty sure. Either its around your own burst and mitigations or its modifying your speed/location.

[Ankhira]

Definitely not happening on Primal. I main MNK now and I am not seeing that happen. Though, if you are playing MNK, odds are you will be marked by the opposing team. And any good bard will (or should) have you on watch. If you are using your dash to go into a crowd, is it with a group of others? what happens when you dash with DRK/DNC/GNB/VPR diving too?

I am aware of a couple 3rd party tools. None of which allow for automatic ability usage against someone else's use of an ability, I am pretty sure. Either its around your own burst and mitigations or its modifying your speed/location.

There's third party tools to automatically silence/poly/knockback characters based on which ability is used. While I don't believe every Bard is using it, when it's happening in every team fight the moment I use my dash, not before. If I'm fighting someone, nothing is happening, the second I use my dash = silenced it's hard to believe there's not something being used there, idk. It's also not Dash > Do a little damage. No, it's dash > instant silence. Like, do I believe some people genuinely have the skill, sure, but to pull that off EVERY single time? Nah, I don't believe that

As I said, it makes sense if I'm the solo target, but when the entire alliance is fighting, nothing is being used UNLESS a dash is used, it's just kinda weird to me

[MayuAmakura]

I don't think people here even realize why Viper needs a nerf. When it first came out, it was way too strong in CC that it got nerfed pretty much as soon as next patch came. It just had too much HP stealing / lifesteal thing that made it unkillable. Also it made issues in lower ranks because Viper by far is one if not the strongest class to play in bronze-gold as everybody will stand under you and focus you. That is free damage + heal and you take everything for your team. They realized that and they nerfed it.

Then devs decided to revert those changes bit by bit and slowly started adding lifesteal back to Viper. It was small amounts and now it has gotten insane amount of lifesteal for free.

You have 2 times to stand still in defensive stance which is already 2 times big heals. Duo that with role actions and you get an unstoppable machine that causes havoc in FL games. Even back in the patches before buffs it was strong as f and made people go bald because of how much they can sustain and be noob friendly. Let's take a look at Samurai as well. Why all of a sudden Samurai receives buffs where it has lifesteal on many abilities now? Including that it works even if the damage is mitigated, it still gets healed??? Do you realize the issue here?

The more lifesteal they get, the less times they use recuperate and harder to kill. Obnoxious class that deserves nerfs. With battle high before, at least after it dies it resets BH a bit. Now it's over. Once it gets up, its gg wp. People here need to realize that if certain jobs are super popular in FL, it means something you know, like a meta. Too many Viper and GNB players are currently in FL and for a reason. Just jump into entire enemy team, laugh at them as they try to do something, don't get punished but entire team gets punished for focusing you. How is that a balanced gameplay or "skill" ?

When me as GNB can activate role action rampant, nebula, heart, jump into enemy team, use my LB and get 95%+ damage reduction all while I'm dealing insane damage to them and 24 people focusing me but they deal 200-500 HP damage. Is that called "skilled player" ? It just rewards me for rushing into someone without thinking if I'm going to die or not.

Edit: Also the fact that you cannot silence, stop or pushback Viper in defensive stance is also a toxic behavior.

[MayuAmakura]

I've probably had more problems with getting precision silence sniped the second I am in range of any of the 20 billion bards than I've ever had with a viper.

Because 3rd party tools exist. So many of them use those to afk and let it play alone for them. Most have tools to instantly guard against machinist LB, against WHM Lb (specially since it doesn't insta stun you anymore which actually made square enix help plugins a lot), machinist snipe, bard silence snipes, dancers that aren't stun-locked during first second of their LB but can walk freely and much more. Oh and back when teleport bug was a thing and you'd see many people teleport back to their base in an instant second whenever they were about to die which made them invulnerable to ever dying. Although this teleporting thing still happens in CC from recent videos.

[ChrysOCE]

I don't think people here even realize why Viper needs a nerf. When it first came out, it was way too strong in CC that it got nerfed pretty much as soon as next patch came. It just had too much HP stealing / lifesteal thing that made it unkillable. Also it made issues in lower ranks because Viper by far is one if not the strongest class to play in bronze-gold as everybody will stand under you and focus you. That is free damage + heal and you take everything for your team. They realized that and they nerfed it.

Then devs decided to revert those changes bit by bit and slowly started adding lifesteal back to Viper. It was small amounts and now it has gotten insane amount of lifesteal for free.

You have 2 times to stand still in defensive stance which is already 2 times big heals. Duo that with role actions and you get an unstoppable machine that causes havoc in FL games. Even back in the patches before buffs it was strong as f and made people go bald because of how much they can sustain and be noob friendly. Let's take a look at Samurai as well. Why all of a sudden Samurai receives buffs where it has lifesteal on many abilities now? Including that it works even if the damage is mitigated, it still gets healed??? Do you realize the issue here?

The more lifesteal they get, the less times they use recuperate and harder to kill. Obnoxious class that deserves nerfs. With battle high before, at least after it dies it resets BH a bit. Now it's over. Once it gets up, its gg wp. People here need to realize that if certain jobs are super popular in FL, it means something you know, like a meta. Too many Viper and GNB players are currently in FL and for a reason. Just jump into entire enemy team, laugh at them as they try to do something, don't get punished but entire team gets punished for focusing you. How is that a balanced gameplay or "skill" ?

When me as GNB can activate role action rampant, nebula, heart, jump into enemy team, use my LB and get 95%+ damage reduction all while I'm dealing insane damage to them and 24 people focusing me but they deal 200-500 HP damage. Is that called "skilled player" ? It just rewards me for rushing into someone without thinking if I'm going to die or not.

But part of that comes back to the players. SAM can hard counter VPR. Take their AOE and LB them back. MNK can disrupt them and let your team hit them while they are animation locked. Same with GNB. GNB pops their LB? Bind them in place and just move out of range. MNK LB them and their LB is used up while they are in animation lock. And sure, it will be hard when you have a group attacking you. But it is up to the players to counteract. If half the team are on ranged and most of them dont even use their silence/bind/knockback, whose fault is that?
That's not to say that VPR isn't problematic right now. I fully believe it is. It really didnt need any buff in FL, but that is cause Square does not balance for FL.