So, when is VPR getting nerfs? (Frontline)

[Hazelx3]

Main problem is the gap vs experienced and unexperienced players. You cannot make unexperienced players stop hitting into snake scales.
It's the same problem in ranked CC Bronze - Gold, where some people use VPR to climb up, because they know at the beginning of the match, almost every opponent will start hitting into snake scales.
Same goes for FL, if you queue random, you'll always get unexperienced and experienced players in your team and if you get more unexperienced, they'll all be hitting into VPRs snake scales.
A DPS class shouldn't tank like this anyway

[Valence]

People still hit into snake scales in high ranks, because good VPRs there know where they have to conveniently scale to eat all the cleaves in the world.
It's not very different from chiten in that sense.

[Divinemights]

Main problem is the gap vs experienced and unexperienced players. You cannot make unexperienced players stop hitting into snake scales.
It's the same problem in ranked CC Bronze - Gold, where some people use VPR to climb up, because they know at the beginning of the match, almost every opponent will start hitting into snake scales.
Same goes for FL, if you queue random, you'll always get unexperienced and experienced players in your team and if you get more unexperienced, they'll all be hitting into VPRs snake scales.
A DPS class shouldn't tank like this anyway

I am trying to understand the logic here.
It sounds like you are saying experienced players were somehow born experienced.
Did experienced players never take Zantetsuken to the face?
Never get pulled into Salted Earth?
Never get one shot by Marksman's Spite?

Of course they did.
The difference is that they learned, adapted, and started anticipating those actions
So what exactly is stopping these "inexperienced" players from learning the same way?
Nothing.

I've always found it strange that it's considered acceptable for melee DPS to take risks whenever they engage.
If they mistime their dive, they get punished by AoEs, crowd control, focus fire, or simply die.
Yet some ranged players seem to expect that they should be able to spam damage and CC from safety, suffer no consequences for poor positioning, and face no penalty for choosing the wrong target.

Personally, I think the current changes are fine.
In fact, I think Frontline would benefit even more in 8.1 if melee defensive actions gained a limited reflection effect, a toned down version of Chiten.
Ranged jobs have had it far too easy for too long.

I tried Black Mage the other day.
I barely understood how the job worked, yet I still managed around 12 kills just by following the crowd and spamming AoEs.
That's ridiculous.

[Hazelx3]

To explain it simple, the difference between experienced and unexperienced players by your logic:
Experienced players get hit less by the skills you mentioned, meanwhile unexperienced players would get hit more often by them. They also tend to attack more into people they shouldn't like active snake scales from VPR
A melee DPS class shouldn't act like a tank, the other DPS classes can't run into people and survive without a LB if they have one like RPR
Also something I don't understand, if we leave FL out and the extra skills for it, by playing CC as a WAR you don't feel like a tank, I mean this class has 66k HP but even a BlM is tankier and it's a mage DPS class + Plus most people will attack you there, because of its AOE damage and you have really no way to retreat in danger, only your 4 seconds shield what everyone has

[ThreeBeastSmile]

I was thinking just now how a lot of what WAR has in its kit would totally work on VPR if it were fashioned as a hunter/trapper as was discussed in another thread. Binds, heavies, stuns, pull-in... cc-laden in general? That all tracks for being something of that archetype, yet it's all on WAR. VPR is just completely foiled by its lame ass pseudo-anime hero identity.

I know, Blota is a throwback to Holmgang, but like... why the random bind on Primal Wrath? It just don't fit in with the aesthetic of the move imo (I know this applies to a fair number of other jobs' skills but I feel like it's quite glaring on WAR). Yes, WAR has that unstoppable juggernaut vibe with its un-cc'able Inner Release state on the LB as well as the slightest bit of a run speed increase, but the raised HP often times doesn't feel like that much (especially in Frontline, and especially now). Temporarily bracing in place for increased defense and then unleashing an enraged attack just seems like such a berserker-y thing to do, not some dual-wielding flighty swordsman.

Whereas VPR could get some kind of tether-like thing on a longer than average LB cd (per that other thread), or maybe leaning into some of its envenoming past. Perhaps even rip off old NIN's suite of poisons (since it can apparently rip off RPR's signature mechanic overall, why not eh).

Reckon that's what pisses me off the most about the job, the wasted stylin' potential on it. It's so aggravatingly flavourless as it is right now. Apologies for the partial derail, aware this is not on topic.

[Scintilla]

A melee DPS class shouldn't act like a tank, the other DPS classes can't run into people and survive without a LB if they have one like RPR

Well, as anyone paying the slightest bit of attention during a game can see, neither can VPR?

VPR's sole survival is scales (aided by Bloodbath, a skill available to all melee DPS). That's it. Delay scales even by a second with CC, either before they jump in or as they come out of it, and they will crumple in an instant. Remove scales forcefully through DNC, RPR, MNK LB etc. and they'll get deleted just like any other melee DPS, assuming the alliance have noticed their teammates honourable action and made use of it. If they haven't, again, that's entirely the fault of the alliance for a complete lack of awareness of what's going on around them. Apply various debuffs to heavily reduce their HP regain and significantly slow and hinder their escape (e.g. Lethargy and Rust). Even just an alliance blind focusing down an unsupported VPR while they're in scales can wipe them within seconds.

There is no invulnerability. Just looking at the average VPR deaths on a scoreboard will show that - they tend to be notably higher than most classes.
It has it's weaknesses and those are based largely upon having a coordinated enemy. It survives through poor enemy coordination. But rather than seeking to better coordinate and improve their own poor play that allows VPR to thrive, it's preferred to just complain to have it altered.


As for WAR, I agree is is a rather neglected tank in comparison to the others. It can still be very strong under a good player, but needs an experienced player to fully utilise it's potential. It can be more challenging and unforgiving to an average player. So, yes, hopefully that will be buffed later to help it to better align with the other tanks.

[Absurdity]

People still hit into snake scales in high ranks, because good VPRs there know where they have to conveniently scale to eat all the cleaves in the world.
It's not very different from chiten in that sense.

I find Chiten to be infinitely more annoying in the frontlines chaos.
Even if you accidentally cleave a Viper in Snake Scales, which imo is a lot harder since it's a lot more obvious what they're trying to do, you can always just move out of range. It's also still survivable amounts of damage.
Chiten on the other hand is a lot easier to accidentally hit and Samurai's LB just flat out kills you if you so much as touch it once.

[Laerune]

Seems word is getting around, I did a Frontline where 40% of the players were playing VPR.

[TofuLove]

Buff viper, I wanna hit 15M next match.

[Hazelx3]

I was thinking just now how a lot of what WAR has in its kit would totally work on VPR if it were fashioned as a hunter/trapper as was discussed in another thread. Binds, heavies, stuns, pull-in... cc-laden in general? That all tracks for being something of that archetype, yet it's all on WAR. VPR is just completely foiled by its lame ass pseudo-anime hero identity.

I know, Blota is a throwback to Holmgang, but like... why the random bind on Primal Wrath? It just don't fit in with the aesthetic of the move imo (I know this applies to a fair number of other jobs' skills but I feel like it's quite glaring on WAR). Yes, WAR has that unstoppable juggernaut vibe with its un-cc'able Inner Release state on the LB as well as the slightest bit of a run speed increase, but the raised HP often times doesn't feel like that much (especially in Frontline, and especially now). Temporarily bracing in place for increased defense and then unleashing an enraged attack just seems like such a berserker-y thing to do, not some dual-wielding flighty swordsman.

Whereas VPR could get some kind of tether-like thing on a longer than average LB cd (per that other thread), or maybe leaning into some of its envenoming past. Perhaps even rip off old NIN's suite of poisons (since it can apparently rip off RPR's signature mechanic overall, why not eh).

Reckon that's what pisses me off the most about the job, the wasted stylin' potential on it. It's so aggravatingly flavourless as it is right now. Apologies for the partial derail, aware this is not on topic.

I don't know if it would change anything, but maybe reducing VPR snake scales to 20 or 30% and buffing his damage instead, maybe it would change him a little and not making him a super tank