Rework Viper

[Raesha]

Title says it all

[Esmoire]

Not even sure who this job is for. If a job is from the mainline series, PvP is pretty good at capturing the essence of that job as seen in other games. Knight/Paladin has a form of Cover, dragoons jump, monks have a powerful counterattack and high HP. If it's FFXIV original, or has a theming unique to this game, they usually bring in the lore or fantasy to make something unique. Scholar doesn't have a strong flavour in the mainline games, but it's a job with incredible buffs and debuffs to fulfill a strategist kind of image. So on and so forth.

Snake Scales as a focus is so strange. In PvE viper is literally the least defensive melee job in the game, sharing a place with DRG for having no unique mitigation or dedicated heals outside of role skills. The "viper" part of the job, a venom, was taken out a week within DT coming out. In their lore, they are these amazing hunters of beasts. I don't know, nothing there really screams "defensive stalling job". It's not OP, it's not UP. It's just annoying. Any time people run it in tournaments, it's just stall play that makes the matches longer and less active.

If they do anything, figure it would really lean into that hunter fantasy... Traps, bolas, being able to tether an enemy to them, sleep (the style BLM used to have), or at least fulfill the rogue prowler kind of image. Anything besides stalling.

[ThreeBeastSmile]

If they do anything, figure it would really lean into that hunter fantasy... Traps, bolas, being able to tether an enemy to them, sleep (the style BLM used to have), or at least fulfill the rogue prowler kind of image. Anything besides stalling.

I think I touched upon a conflict of theme a long time ago during its first iteration when barely anyone played it. That yeah it was weird that it has a long-form parry-ish focus with Snake Scales in PvP, when it's so flimsy in PvE. Then again it is sort of flimsy as a presence in PvE too, like what is it? Oooh it's the dude that does that ineffective-irl-but-cool-in-an-imaginary-context-dual-wielding-sword-thing like that Kirito guy in SAO ooh ooh! With a smidge of Zidane, what with the double-saber form (and vaguely the "Trance"). But otherwise..?

It's a tough place to be, to not have any observable hard-coded theme. Why does it have an almost hungering approach with the leeching and stuff that I would imagine RPR having more of? (Well I guess it has more of it now but it was added in later). It's a headhunter only in the aspect that it does mostly raw damage with no frills. And aura. I don't mean the blue aura. Just anime aura. Maybe the guard-bypassing is supposed to give an aura of badass or something too because "unstoppable" vibes idk (when that could've been a venom aspect...)

It's like... it would have to be a totally different job in PvP to fulfil that jungle slayer of beasts thing it has going on (apparently) lore-wise. The only thing that channels that energy is when it springs an LB out of Backlash for the big damage and snare to be quite honest, that's the only time I feel it's like a pouncing jaguar or something lol. It's disappointing because I really wouldn't mind to play the, yeah, prowling hunter sort that's more in your face and feisty over NIN but with that touch of trip-up big game hunting tech. Job theme is a rather important aspect for me. Even in PvP.

It works mechanically but it's just... so random. It's confused stylistically.

[Hazelx3]

Title says it all

You mean, because the class is broken in the lower ranks in CC and everyone attacks the VPR while he uses scales on the crystal?

[Zeovalguar]

Yes please. Rework this job broken beyond measure. 60% damage reduction plus 50% extra when using Snake Scales? 4k barrier that when broken unleashes an AoE with same range as a Macrocosmos and 100% lifeleech? And it can be recast again using Rattling Coil, which also can pretty much be recast whenever the vpr gets a kill or an assist? I get that when first introduced the job was lackluster but now is just a pain to deal with them, they don't really have counters and they just stall and stall and make the match a drag.

The "just use RPR or DNC lb bro" excuse doesn't work if you need to use a limit break to counter a single job, it's simply unbalanced.

[Scintilla]

Yes please. Rework this job broken beyond measure. 60% damage reduction plus 50% extra when using Snake Scales? 4k barrier that when broken unleashes an AoE with same range as a Macrocosmos and 100% lifeleech? And it can be recast again using Rattling Coil, which also can pretty much be recast whenever the vpr gets a kill or an assist?

Again, my response will be largely focused on FL, rather than CC:

The recent HP regain from LB in addition to the Bloodbath updates has certainly given VPR a huge boost and it was already a pretty good class. That said, changes would need to be made somewhat cautiously to avoid pushing it into the realms of DRK nerfs, where the class needs a lot of hand-holding to make it viable.

The class design basically rewards anyone willing to take the lead and push on the frontlines - a role that 90% of the FL playerbase outright refuse to do. As such, a large proportion of VPR players are FL regulars, which may give a slightly skewed view of the class - those players will be very good at whatever class they play, so some of VPRs apparent strength will be partially due to player ability/experience.

I get that when first introduced the job was lackluster but now is just a pain to deal with them, they don't really have counters and they just stall and stall and make the match a drag.

The "just use RPR or DNC lb bro" excuse doesn't work if you need to use a limit break to counter a single job, it's simply unbalanced.

Just focus it down, and you don't really need a counter if it's just a typical solo VPR. Part of the issue, as I mentioned in my post above, is that teams are usually split on how to manage it.

That said, if you did find that your team were having difficulties taking down a VPR, there's various things to try to help take them down:

MNK LB or RPR LB can be very helpful to cancel scales, especially given they both have quite short CD times. I feel that DNC LB just for a VPR would be a huge waste, though.

But LBs aren't the only option. Rust and Lethargy are also pretty good, reducing their damage dealt, reducing their HP regain, and slowing their escape.
Silences as they jump in before they get chance to apply scales. Diabrosis and Biolysis, both reducing the VPRs self healing.
There's many combinations, many options beyond pure damage, if only players put some thought into the skills they use rather than blindly smashing the keyboard.

[MisterNublet]

Just focus it down, and you don't really need a counter if it's just a typical solo VPR. Part of the issue, as I mentioned in my post above, is that teams are usually split on how to manage it.

That said, if you did find that your team were having difficulties taking down a VPR, there's various things to try to help take them down:

MNK LB or RPR LB can be very helpful to cancel scales, especially given they both have quite short CD times. I feel that DNC LB just for a VPR would be a huge waste, though.

There's also another snake scales counter that costs 0 resources, and doesn't require the use of a LB.

It's called walking away from the VPR. There is even four seconds to do so! Can even toggle sprint to move away faster!

Not only will the VPR do a lot less damage as a result, they'll heal for even less and will have to expend a dash to make sure their backlash will connect which gives you a second to use any kind of CC during their dash animation! Now they're out of position too!

If it's a lone VPR that doesn't have his alliance backing him up, then dunk on them.

VPR is like the least threatening job.

[Zeovalguar]

There's also another snake scales counter that costs 0 resources, and doesn't require the use of a LB.

It's called walking away from the VPR. There is even four seconds to do so! Can even toggle sprint to move away faster!

Not only will the VPR do a lot less damage as a result, they'll heal for even less and will have to expend a dash to make sure their backlash will connect which gives you a second to use any kind of CC during their dash animation! Now they're out of position too!

If it's a lone VPR that doesn't have his alliance backing him up, then dunk on them.

VPR is like the least threatening job.

Sure, very useful, why didn't I think of that?

Will remember that when we're trying to capture a node and a VPR approaches us. Let's all just run away and let them capture the nodes instead. Peak gameplay.

[Divinemights]

Sure, very useful, why didn't I think of that?
Will remember that when we're trying to capture a node and a VPR approaches us. Let's all just run away and let them capture the nodes instead. Peak gameplay.

So this is about Frontline and not Crystalline Conflict?
Then why are you worrying about Viper when jobs like Dancer are a much bigger priority target?
In large scale group fights, the entire point is to reduce enemy numbers as quickly as possible by focusing weak links first.
That usually means targeting jobs like Bard or Machinist, jobs often played by PvE-oriented players or picking off a Dancer because they’re both threatening and relatively easy to kill.
So what’s the logic behind focus-firing a Viper that clearly isn’t outputting enough damage to justify being your primary target?