Give Healers a simple DPS kit

[ty_taurus]

Absolutely. Its why just slapping on more GCDs/oGCDs doesn't solve anything. People would pog out for a couple weeks and then ultimately end up saying that basically nothing has changed.

That's also why people keep asking for filler rotation to just be on 1 button.

You're referring to people who have wanted static combo actions to be combined onto 1 button, such as Machinist's Heated Split/Slug/Clean Shot. Are you capable of understanding that DPS actions can be more than 1-2-3 combos? Is that something you're mentally able to do? Because you do realize Machinist has more than just Heated Split/Slug/Clean Shot, right? Even within Machinist, not everyone likes the idea of merging the 1-2-3 combo, but even if you did, it has Air Anchor, Drill, Chainsaw, Hypercharge, etc. Like do you know those exist? Do you understand how they work? You seem to have this idea that everything is just a 1-2-3 combo, but like, there's not a single job in the game that that's an accurate assessment of.

Which, to be clear, no one's asking for Healers to have all of that and no healing. Rather, it's more like maybe something equivalent to half of that give or take.

Like I said before, I would've literally shut up and enjoyed Dawntrail if they just cut Sage's DOT duration in half, added an Addersting proc to it, and halved the cooldowns of Phlegma III and Psyche. That's my bare minimum, which really isn't that high of a bar.

[ForsakenRoe]

Absolutely. Its why just slapping on more GCDs/oGCDs doesn't solve anything. People would pog out for a couple weeks and then ultimately end up saying that basically nothing has changed.

And yet this is exactly what happens, every expansion, with the Healing side of the kit. We have 20+ actions dedicated to Healing and/or Mitigation, and SE gives us a 21st and 22nd, and people pog for a couple of weeks, and then realize that nothing has changed. Even the supposed 'increase to healing requirements' ends up evening out because of the additions. So, would it not make more sense to look at the Damage side of the kit? After all, going from 20 to 21 buttons for Healing/Mit is an increase of 5%, going from 2 GCDs to 3 seeing regular use (IE, more frequently than 'three times per 2min') in our damage rotation is an increase of 50%. Far more noticeable in our day-to-day gameplay, I'd imagine.

That's also why people keep asking for filler rotation to just be on 1 button.

That can be addressed via potency balancing. For example, taking SCH as the example, SE could re-add Miasma and Shadowflare as GCD DOT effects, and tune potencies such that not using them is a fraction of the damage loss that 'not using Biolysis in DT' is. For example:

Broil: 340p
Bio: 70p on cast, 30p per tick, 30s, 370p total
Miasma: 280p on cast, 10p per tick, 360p total (replaces Ruin 2)
Shadowflare: 100p on cast, 50p per tick to enemies in the bubble it leaves for 15s, 350p total

Not using ANY of the DOTs would cost you less than two Broils per 2 minutes. Crit Variance would be a bigger factor in your 'loss of damage' than your choice to not use the DOTs. By comparison, not using Bioylsis at all currently, costs you over TEN Broils worth of damage per 2 minutes. Every DPS check would be clearable without pressing the DOTs a single time

That was my point. Not that it's a static filler rotation. Filler rotations absolutely ought to be 1-buttoned, but that's a different category.

Part of the issue is that the 'filler' rotation is just that, filler. So rather than throwing hands in the air and giving up in advance, because 'sod it, it's just filler', why not make a rotation that feels like it's accomplishing more than just 'it does damage, and there wasn't any healing to do at the time'? So that it feels less like 'filler' and more like... 'a deliberate decision was made to use these actions, in this order/at this time, knowing that 'XYZ' are the resultant payoff for doing so'? For example, building up a gauge during the 'no healing is currently needed' times (of which there are many, even in high-end content), which you then spend on a Healing action during the 'actually healing IS needed right now' times, creating an ebb-and-flow gameplay loop?

As an example as to why 'filler should not always be one-buttoned', let's take WAR. Is Fell Cleave 'filler'? Should WAR have its 123 combo, and Fell Cleave, all merged into one single button?

[Wildheaven182]

I'm not sure who this comment is directed towards, but personally I'm very critical of CS3. I think there's been a lot that they've dropped the ball on the last few years and I haven't hesitated to be vocal about it. So much so that I was banned from the largest discord and the main subreddit in years past. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're defending the company. It might just mean that your take is bad or you're just ignorant/naive about something.

An argument is impersonal, not directed at any individual.
Just because someone disagrees with you also doesnt mean your take is "bad" or ill informed, and that's rather fascistic and authoritarian for the server and reddit to use power of authority to ban opposing views over such disagreements.
This is a community where we cannot have disagreements or you will be branded as an other and cast out and harassed. And oh will you be harassed by the supposedly award winning community.

That is the nature of people defending an aspect of the game for personal reasons instead of having a genuine discussion of the argument.
It is also the nature of people replying with arguments that use nuance to justify generalizations.

[Carighan]

Part of the issue is that the 'filler' rotation is just that, filler. So rather than throwing hands in the air and giving up in advance, because 'sod it, it's just filler', why not make a rotation that feels like it's accomplishing more than just 'it does damage, and there wasn't any healing to do at the time'? So that it feels less like 'filler' and more like... 'a deliberate decision was made to use these actions, in this order/at this time, knowing that 'XYZ' are the resultant payoff for doing so'?

I mean, I got two thoughts about that:

• Fully agreed, but it's also kinda trivial to agree with. Of course not *having* a filler or filler-rotation because your other actions keep you busy at all times would be perfect, but it's exceedingly rare for an MMORPG class to pull that off, I'll tell you from nearly 30 years of experience now...
• You *do* realize what you're hinting at is something the devs are essentially doing with WHM refunding GCD-heals via a super-GCD-nuke? It's not replacing all filler (like I said above, tricky), but it exists. You get a payoff for filling up the gauge via healing.

As an example as to why 'filler should not always be one-buttoned', let's take WAR. Is Fell Cleave 'filler'? Should WAR have its 123 combo, and Fell Cleave, all merged into one single button?

No, it doesn't pass the autohotkey smell-test. The 1-2-3, for sure. 4 should just be an effect of Fell Cleaving ~regularly. Maybe it's a short-ish buff now and each Fell Cleave applies it, or even better Fell Cleave leaves a debuff and if you Fell Cleave again into it (duration short-ish) then you get a medium~long self-buff for 10% more damage output. But Fell Cleave itself cannot be merged into the filler rotation because unlike Paladin 1-2-3-4-5-7-6 it's not a static element of gameplay. It has alternative paths you can arrive at the button, and hence it needs to be separate.

It's far from perfect of course. And the rule cannot be cleanly delineated anyways. But if you cannot deviate (e.g. the typical 1-2-3) then it absolutely already only exists for animation-variety-purposes. It holds exactly 0 gameplay value over pressing the same button 3 times (which is why Warrior 1-2-4 is at least marginally interesting, if the effect weren't so lame that it effectively collapses into a fully static rotation once again).

(edit)
Apologies for sounding argumentative, english isn't my native language. I agree with you mostly, tbh. I just find the need for DPS "toolkits" on healers to be a bit of a weird request, I'd go to damage role if I want DPS toolkits. I need a filler, and like you say ideally that filler interacts with my healing kit in either direction or maybe even both. Compare Disc Priest Atonement in WoW, or how in GW2 most healing/support skills are PBAoE skills that also cause damage, stuff like that. Direct interaction would of course be much preferable, which is why I'm excited for even something as benign as the WHM supernuke that charges from GCD heals. We need healing to be massively shifted into GCDs again - so that what we do is healing - and then having a damage-interaction from that is a neat idea. I'm more than fine for the empty moments that'll still exist to be just filled with a filler. After all I want these moments to be less, not dev time wasted on making the filler more complicated. Make the rest so complicated the filler is the welcome brief moment of mental relaxation!

[ty_taurus]

I don’t understand where this philosophy of “if I wanted to DPS I’d play a DPS” came from. Because no one would say the same about tanks. “But tanks need to hold aggro!” And aggro isn’t damage. Why not have a rotation where all you do is increase threat generation and decrease threat on other players? Provoke and Shirk exist. Flash did too once. Why do tanks need anymore more than a 1-2-3 combo on one button if their job is to tank? Because that’d suck and every tank player knows that. For some reason healers see to have this “damage is beneath me” mentality that does not make sense.

“If I wanted my gameplay to center around dealing massive damage, I’d play a DPS.” That’s the correct way to compare DPS between roles. I don’t care that my damage is low. I care that the way I provide whatever small yet meaningful damage I can is achieved in a fun and interesting way.

[RaionKansen]

I don’t understand where this philosophy of “if I wanted to DPS I’d play a DPS” came from. Because no one would say the same about tanks. “But tanks need to hold aggro!” And aggro isn’t damage. Why not have a rotation where all you do is increase threat generation and decrease threat on other players? Provoke and Shirk exist. Flash did too once. Why do tanks need anymore more than a 1-2-3 combo on one button if their job is to tank? Because that’d suck and every tank player knows that. For some reason healers see to have this “damage is beneath me” mentality that does not make sense.

“If I wanted my gameplay to center around dealing massive damage, I’d play a DPS.” That’s the correct way to compare DPS between roles. I don’t care that my damage is low. I care that the way I provide whatever small yet meaningful damage I can is achieved in a fun and interesting way.

Tanks don't have to lose GCDs to tank. Very simple answer.

Or do you want healers to just have a dps rotation and a ton of healing oGCDs so they never have to actually GCD heal?

[ty_taurus]

Tanks don't have to lose GCDs to tank. Very simple answer.

Or do you want healers to just have a dps rotation and a ton of healing oGCDs so they never have to actually GCD heal?

Paladin did when flash was a thing, not to mention how tank stance used to cost 25% if your DPs roughly. oh but you weren’t there for that were you?

[ForsakenRoe]

You *do* realize what you're hinting at is something the devs are essentially doing with WHM refunding GCD-heals via a super-GCD-nuke? It's not replacing all filler (like I said above, tricky), but it exists. You get a payoff for filling up the gauge via healing.

That's for making Healing spells feel more interconnected with the kit, and that's cool, I even had my own version of 'damage neutral Healing system' written up. But, it doesn't help with making the Damage buttons that you call filler, feel less 'filler'. Between HEaling instances, we're still going to be pressing the Damage buttons over and over, and they will still have zero interplay with the kit beyond 'I'm pressing this because the alternative is to waste resources on spells that won't have any effect (ie overhealing), or just stand there'. I would like for the Damage spells to contribute to something more than just 'we do some damage', ideally, such as reducing the CD of something in our Healing kit, or generating a Gauge to later spend on a Healing action when it's needed. Using our Healing to fuel Damage via a refund like Misery, or the new thing, is cool. Why not have the reverse, where our Damage fuels our Healing capabilities? Then, the two would work together to create a cycle that feeds into itself

No, it doesn't pass the autohotkey smell-test.

What the heck is the 'autohotkey smell-test'? What decides if something passes or fails it?

Most players just press FC when their Gauge hits 50, so it's entirely 'automatable', ie with a Macro that tries to do FC before any other action. You could absolutely consolidate FC into the 123 button (and with that consolidation, you wouldn't even need the Beast Gauge at all anymore), but I also would not want that, because that'd result in a more bland experience playing the Job. Difference seems to be, I want a kit for Healers that mirrors WAR (or is slightly less complex, I suppose) for the times where we have no Healing to do (and there WILL be times, it's an inescapable inevitability of how content is designed in this game), but you seem to want to have this weird split where Healers are given the 11111 gameplay, and Tanks get to have an actual rotation, despite both roles being equally 'not a DPS'

You bring up WOW, I have more buttons in my damage rotation as a Healer there, despite having FAR higher pressure to actually output HPS in content. Plus, those buttons have interactions that give beenfits to me and my Healing output, so even when I'm doing Damage, I'm helping to perform the duty of 'keep the team alive'. I want the same here, and it should make even more sense to have it in FFXIV than in WOW, given that we're hit with HPS press less frequently by comparison

I don’t understand where this philosophy of “if I wanted to DPS I’d play a DPS”

My best guess is the early days of WOW. Either Vanilla, where Holy Paladin gameplay was 'spam the equivalent of Cure1 over and over', WOTLK where Holy Paladin gameplay was 'spam the equivalent of Cure2 over and over (and it deals splash healing to nearby allies)', or Cataclysm where you quite literally did not have time to DPS because Healing throughput was A: so required due to the content having hands and B: cost a ton of Mana so you didn't have any spare for DPS actions. I know that FFXIV devs were told to look at WOW (at the time it'd have been the end of Cataclysm) as homework for the 'remake the game into 2.0', but it feels like they copied the Cata Healer designs (Freecure would fit Catacylsm's design style perfectly), forgot to copy the HPS pressure of the content, and then have stuck with this mentality that 'Cata Healing is how Healing should be' and never kept pace with the changing design landscape of gaming

But even WOW has changed with the times and moved towards a more 'mix Damage and Healing' kind of design. Hell, even in one of the minigames in OSRS that has 'roles', the 'Healer' role has to do some damage, and that minigame first came out in 2007

[ForsakenRoe]

Tanks don't have to lose GCDs to tank. Very simple answer.

Or do you want healers to just have a dps rotation and a ton of healing oGCDs so they never have to actually GCD heal?

Paladin did when flash was a thing, not to mention how tank stance used to cost 25% if your DPs roughly. oh but you weren’t there for that were you?

Adding to this, WAR had to choose between Fell Cleave and Inner Beast as their Gauge spender, with the former being 'more damage' and the latter being 'less damage but it grants 20% Mit for 6s', and had to be in Tank Stance (which cost them damage) to use Equilibrium to restore HP, if they used it in DPS stance it'd restore TP

[Carighan]

That's for making Healing spells feel more interconnected with the kit, and that's cool, I even had my own version of 'damage neutral Healing system' written up. But, it doesn't help with making the Damage buttons that you call filler, feel less 'filler'. Between HEaling instances, we're still going to be pressing the Damage buttons over and over, and they will still have zero interplay with the kit beyond 'I'm pressing this because the alternative is to waste resources on spells that won't have any effect (ie overhealing), or just stand there'. I would like for the Damage spells to contribute to something more than just 'we do some damage', ideally, such as reducing the CD of something in our Healing kit, or generating a Gauge to later spend on a Healing action when it's needed. Using our Healing to fuel Damage via a refund like Misery, or the new thing, is cool. Why not have the reverse, where our Damage fuels our Healing capabilities? Then, the two would work together to create a cycle that feeds into itself

Of course, it was more meant as a "Yeah but there's hope, they're doing half of that"!

As for the specific interactions one could think of, I dunno. I had ideas for that before, long before I knew they'd be reducing the ability bloat:

• WHM in my idea got something I wanted to see as "withering", 3 DoTs of varying duration - each very long though with the longest 60s - and a channeled 3s skill that for each 1s, accelerated 1 tick off of each DoT. Effectively the "nuke" deals no damage, but compresses 9s of DoTs into 3s if fully channeled. Adapting for the new Evolved setup, I'd actually go to the opposite direction: Thin Air returns, 60s-90s CD, up to 3 charges. Now the only "mana regen" we have. One short DoT, 9s. Glare adds random 1-2 ticks to it, High Glare and that new nuke add 2. As the DoT runs without dropping off, it ticks faster and faster and faster (to the point where in 1GCD it loses >2 ticks, so you can no longer sustain it endlessly). Each tick of damage also reduces Thin Air CD by a non-trivial amount. As this is now our only manaregen it's important to cycle it, plus "floating" the DoT becomes a game of its own as only nukes do that.
• AST "waxes" the moon in their UI element with nukes, accelerating all their spell casts but also making them proportionally weaker. Healing GCDs "wane" the moon, making everything slower but also proportionally stronger. This is cyclical, if you cap the effect, you get 2-3 "free" hits at max effect, then it flips over to the maximum other end and you resume from there. Faster is better for secondary effects but worse for mana, and vice versa. Also the ever-changing cadence helps with unique combat feel.
• SCH... I don't know where to start, it's a ruined pet class, delete entirely and first decide whether it's supposed to be a fairy summoner or a tactician. All other considerations are secondary until a class fantasy even exists.
• SGE I'd make able to hold down Dosis. It casts normal, but if the button is held, it keeps firing. Slowly at first, then like a minigun in a videogame ever-faster and faster. Each hit has 25% of the normal power (begins firing in 1/4th of the time before acceleration), 25% of the mana cost and 25% of the Kardia-effect. As you hold down the button your mana starts depleting quickly but you also cause more damage, while also rapidly healing your Kardia target.

Basically the idea was to mostly keep the unique DPS mechanic that at least somewhat interacts with healing limited to a single button if possible, or existing buttons (I wrote this before knowing about evolved). For SCH if meant to be a fairy summoner I'd add a "fairy swarm", and every X seconds your fairy returns to it and a new one pops out, 3-4 different ones which each modify your main nuke, a single fairy ability and what the tether does. One is a damage fairy, etc. But, randomized (though I'd fudge the chances so excluding some outliers you get an even just randomized cycle through them as the fights drag on).