The Evolved combat is needed

[Malthir]

The game has really been suffering over the years from severaly issues, 2 of the big ones are going to be somewhat solved.

1. Slow combat and intro to classes at low level. The 2.5s GCD made it really had for new players to get into this game, most MMO's have a 1.5s GCD, also not having you full rotation until very very late into the game was horrible and being level sync'd 80% of the time felt so horrible, having the new system aim to give full rotation by level 50 is a good step in the right direction.

2. 2m Meta The 2m meta has been the scurge of this game, it was a mistake for them to lean into it as hard as they did in stormblood, it's good to see this is being broken, will lead to more options for unique class mechanics later down the line instead of forcing everyone into a builder burst system. Take Astrologian, was the card game abit over the top originally, maybe, but was it fun, absolutely, didn't work with the 2m meta so they yeeted it and made it a press to buff button ruining the uniqueness of the class. All Drk players look back fondly on heavenward Drk, it was un optimal as hell didn't play well with the 2m meta, do you know what else it was, immensly fun to play.

3. Changing the tanks Off tank and main tank being brought back is great, and by the sounds of it we are going to start seeing abilities that debuff bosses again, like the old, Drk passage on Drks blinding the enemy etc. At the moment tanks feel disjointed and basically just blue DPS.

What I would truely love to see next is the FF14 team lift the LOTRO fellowship manoeuvre system and make that the limit break system. For those not aware the LOTRO fellowship manoeuvre system was a system in the game lord of the rings online where when the enemy is in a stun/stagger state, either through a specific trigger of a mechinc in the fight, a random chance, and one fo the classes that can forcfully put the enemy in this state. When they are in this state every one in the party choices between 4 buttons, red, green, blue, yellow. If everyone presses red, big damage attack, blue mana back, green health, but there was combos like 2 red, 2 blue that did a different attack etc. This would really be good for the limit break system imo to make the whole party feel involved in it and now just a button you know press if you're melee DPS or the healer when things go to crap.

While I agree with some of the people who are negative about the new evolved system in that it looks like it will simplify the jobs. I would argue that, that's exactly what is needed, not because the jobs are currrently too complex, but because of how overbearing 2m meta has been on design over the last few expacs, a big sweeping change was needed. Small incrememental tweaks wouldn't do it, you need to wipe it right back down, go simple break the 2m meta, have a place to build from IMO.

I've been really hard on Dawntrail I quit as soon as I finished MSQ, came back for next patch quit again cause story sucked, I was fully in for not coming back, however the evolved combat fixes a large chunk of the issues in the game. Now if only they would change the movement to have a character hit boxes that interacts with the ground instead of having you character be plane that slides along the surface they would be even further into fixing the games issues (it's not 1990 anymore, this type of movement system is beyond dated)

[Neekolyte]

I think a big part of the issue is that they aren't *just* getting rid of the 2m meta, but they're *over*simplifying the classes. Bard is a support class, that's a huge part of its identity. Which makes sense, that's what bards in RPGs do, they buff and support. So why are the songs on the evolved mode turning it into Summoner 2? That's... That's not a good change.

[Falak]

I think a big part of the issue is that they aren't *just* getting rid of the 2m meta, but they're *over*simplifying the classes. Bard is a support class, that's a huge part of its identity. Which makes sense, that's what bards in RPGs do, they buff and support. So why are the songs on the evolved mode turning it into Summoner 2? That's... That's not a good change.

"So each of these songs grants parties a buff. Regen for the ballad, increased movements for the paean, and barrier for the minuet." They still have utility they just ALSO unlock further skills when you use them. They also aren't simplifying the classes that we've seen so far they're just condensing them and giving them contextual or conditional activation.

[StarryVera]

"So each of these songs grants parties a buff. Regen for the ballad, increased movements for the paean, and barrier for the minuet." They still have utility they just ALSO unlock further skills when you use them. They also aren't simplifying the classes that we've seen so far they're just condensing them and giving them contextual or conditional activation.

Except they aren't? BRD is actively losing utility, tying effects to damage limits use and forces them to be used at awful times because you have to keep the GCD rolling to do anything, and if you are overcapping and not collecting all 3 coda you are trolling by choosing to do less damage (the only thing that matters in this game). If the effects were separate from the songs, sure, but they sure as hell aren't from what we saw.

[Falak]

Except they aren't? BRD is actively losing utility, tying effects to damage limits use and forces them to be used at awful times because you have to keep the GCD rolling to do anything, and if you are overcapping and not collecting all 3 coda you are trolling by choosing to do less damage (the only thing that matters in this game). If the effects were separate from the songs, sure, but they sure as hell aren't from what we saw.

You can use them in any order and each song lasts 20 secs. Seems like on use of the last one they all unlock again. Every minute you have a 15 secs shield, a 15 secs regen, and a 6 secs ms buff. If you can't line that up with damage that's not a design issue.

[Valence]

Give an evolved system that's actually serious about bringing back identity (instead of homogenizing bard into a whatever dps) and reintroducing complexity and rotational thought and agency and I'll stop complaining.

I hate reborn, but I also don't like what evolved served me at Fanfest, the more I can look at it with detachment. It's not good.

[Xieldras]

Give an evolved system that's actually serious about bringing back identity (instead of homogenizing bard into a whatever dps) and reintroducing complexity and rotational thought and agency and I'll stop complaining.

I hate reborn, but I also don't like what evolved served me at Fanfest, the more I can look at it with detachment. It's not good.

Make the masses desperate enough for change and they'll accept anything, or something like that.

Like the Dev team has the previous game design documents for Bard when it was super liked in SB, why not look back and integrate it back into play instead of turning it into Red DPS #18?

I don't personally understand why people say bringing PvP into PvE is a good idea, considering both game states are wildly different.

[Sarantserel]

I don't personally understand why people say bringing PvP into PvE is a good idea, considering both game states are wildly different.

100% agreed. PvP and PvE encounters are vastly different context. PvP is chaotic, with unpredictable incoming damage and stop/start fights. This leads to a lot of moment to moment decisions. There's also plenty of room to synergize in PvP context. Like a DRK timing their salted earth just when the AST buffed DRG lands in the middle of the pack.

PvP has great job identity, but its simplified kits only have depth and interesting gameplay consideration in the chaotic context of PvP. If that job design philosophy is just ported to PvE without PvE somehow changing to become just as chaotic and unpredictable, its just gonna lead to a more stale version of PvP.

[Xieldras]

100% agreed. PvP and PvE encounters are vastly different context. PvP is chaotic, with unpredictable incoming damage and stop/start fights. This leads to a lot of moment to moment decisions. There's also plenty of room to synergize in PvP context. Like a DRK timing their salted earth just when the AST buffed DRG lands in the middle of the pack.

PvP has great job identity, but its simplified kits only have depth and interesting gameplay consideration in the chaotic context of PvP. If that job design philosophy is just ported to PvE without PvE somehow changing to become just as chaotic and unpredictable, its just gonna lead to a more stale version of PvP.

PLD has a parry now if I remember, and BRD's repel shot is multidirectional. That implies they'll bring that fast-paced chaos into PvE. I personally had trouble with DT's pace and hated it, so my bet is that I'll hate the new one too.
Reminds me of that Elden Ring thread we had here months back since it feels relevant: Is this still the same game genre?

[Valence]

Make the masses desperate enough for change and they'll accept anything, or something like that.

Like the Dev team has the previous game design documents for Bard when it was super liked in SB, why not look back and integrate it back into play instead of turning it into Red DPS #18?

I don't personally understand why people say bringing PvP into PvE is a good idea, considering both game states are wildly different.

I actually think bringing PvP into PvE would literally save PvE, but that cannot happen with only changes on the job's side else we just end up playing pvp on dummies, which is incredibly boring (see Shatter).
PvP is engaging because it's not all about spitting out damage on a target that barely interacts while dancing around dodging mechanics totally unrelated to what your job is doing.
PvE would need a serious rework to bring actual variables to its gameplay that do interact with the jobs in meaningful and unique ways.