The Evolved combat is needed

[Malthir]

The game has really been suffering over the years from severaly issues, 2 of the big ones are going to be somewhat solved.

1. Slow combat and intro to classes at low level. The 2.5s GCD made it really had for new players to get into this game, most MMO's have a 1.5s GCD, also not having you full rotation until very very late into the game was horrible and being level sync'd 80% of the time felt so horrible, having the new system aim to give full rotation by level 50 is a good step in the right direction.

2. 2m Meta The 2m meta has been the scurge of this game, it was a mistake for them to lean into it as hard as they did in stormblood, it's good to see this is being broken, will lead to more options for unique class mechanics later down the line instead of forcing everyone into a builder burst system. Take Astrologian, was the card game abit over the top originally, maybe, but was it fun, absolutely, didn't work with the 2m meta so they yeeted it and made it a press to buff button ruining the uniqueness of the class. All Drk players look back fondly on heavenward Drk, it was un optimal as hell didn't play well with the 2m meta, do you know what else it was, immensly fun to play.

3. Changing the tanks Off tank and main tank being brought back is great, and by the sounds of it we are going to start seeing abilities that debuff bosses again, like the old, Drk passage on Drks blinding the enemy etc. At the moment tanks feel disjointed and basically just blue DPS.

What I would truely love to see next is the FF14 team lift the LOTRO fellowship manoeuvre system and make that the limit break system. For those not aware the LOTRO fellowship manoeuvre system was a system in the game lord of the rings online where when the enemy is in a stun/stagger state, either through a specific trigger of a mechinc in the fight, a random chance, and one fo the classes that can forcfully put the enemy in this state. When they are in this state every one in the party choices between 4 buttons, red, green, blue, yellow. If everyone presses red, big damage attack, blue mana back, green health, but there was combos like 2 red, 2 blue that did a different attack etc. This would really be good for the limit break system imo to make the whole party feel involved in it and now just a button you know press if you're melee DPS or the healer when things go to crap.

While I agree with some of the people who are negative about the new evolved system in that it looks like it will simplify the jobs. I would argue that, that's exactly what is needed, not because the jobs are currrently too complex, but because of how overbearing 2m meta has been on design over the last few expacs, a big sweeping change was needed. Small incrememental tweaks wouldn't do it, you need to wipe it right back down, go simple break the 2m meta, have a place to build from IMO.

I've been really hard on Dawntrail I quit as soon as I finished MSQ, came back for next patch quit again cause story sucked, I was fully in for not coming back, however the evolved combat fixes a large chunk of the issues in the game. Now if only they would change the movement to have a character hit boxes that interacts with the ground instead of having you character be plane that slides along the surface they would be even further into fixing the games issues (it's not 1990 anymore, this type of movement system is beyond dated)

[Neekolyte]

I think a big part of the issue is that they aren't *just* getting rid of the 2m meta, but they're *over*simplifying the classes. Bard is a support class, that's a huge part of its identity. Which makes sense, that's what bards in RPGs do, they buff and support. So why are the songs on the evolved mode turning it into Summoner 2? That's... That's not a good change.

[Valence]

Give an evolved system that's actually serious about bringing back identity (instead of homogenizing bard into a whatever dps) and reintroducing complexity and rotational thought and agency and I'll stop complaining.

I hate reborn, but I also don't like what evolved served me at Fanfest, the more I can look at it with detachment. It's not good.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think the litmus test will be SGE specifically. If they make SGE a Healer that focuses on dealing damage, and heals by doing so ala PVP, then Evolved has the potential to be interesting. What I fear, based on what we've seen thus far, is that what they showed for WHM, is what they intend for every Healer. EG, SCH and SGE will be expected to just spam Adlo and Succor (and the SGE equivalents), and they'll be made damage neutral. That sounds boring and uninspired as hell, and the opposite of 'Job individuality'

What they really should have done, is demonstrated TWO of each Role. Show a PLD and a WAR, and how their kits differ from one another, to illustrate why an OT is different to a MT. Show the differences between a WHM and SCH, to show us whether they'll actually BE different, or if they're both going to be focused on 'spam damage neutral Healing GCDs'. Show how a Dragoon's going to be different from a Monk or a Ninja, or a Bard from a Machinist or Dancer, because as it stands, we can reasonably say 'there's a nonzero chance that Bard's rotation will be functionally identical to MCH's, just with different VFX'. It's entirely possible that for MCH, it's the same rotation but instead of Songs activating each 'SMN Lego phase', it's Drill/Air Anchor/Chainsaw. We just don't know yet, and SE could have alleviated that concern but did not

[Daralii]

For DPS, it mostly looks like they're going from a full burst every 2 minutes to a much smaller full burst every minute, and I'm concerned for how the "Every man for himself" buff mentality will translate to jobs like DNC. I'm extremely skeptical regarding active counters on tanks with how finicky the networking has always been (and SE's lack of thought towards any regions that are more decentralized than Japan), but healers paint the most dire picture, with most of the reassurances being shit we've heard multiple times before. There are other warning signs for challenge-oriented solo content, like deep dungeons, with them consolidating things like Low Blow and Interject, which have entirely different use cases and are frequently used back-to-back on different targets.

[Sarantserel]

I'm not against changing things since the move to a 2min burst timing was causing all sort of issues, but from what they've shown, I fear Evolved is just going to cause more issues rather than fix.

People keep talking about job identity being back with Evolved, but from what they showed, I don't see it, but I feel its partly because I view job identity differently than how a lot of others do. I don't care about DRG having jumps. XIV is my first FF so I don't care about how a DRG is "supposed" to play. When I think about identity, I think less about aesthetic and more about unique gameplay elements.

I can't speak for before, but when I started playing in ShB, DRG has clear things that were unique to it: Two alternating and long filler combos, 3 different buffs (personal, targeted, raid) with different CDs, the Life of the Dragon system, positionals giving you a powered up GCD.

Now, Evolved DRG is spamming a single button, just like PLD, WHM and BRD. Just like new BRD, it needs 3 stickers to unlock its burst. The only thing left that seems unique to DRG right now are positionals and Sky High. And that's assuming no other melee has positionals, which could very well not be the case. Leaving only Sky High. A button that feels great in PvP, where combat are chaotic and the delay between cast and damage gives some room for opponents to counter play. But in PvE? Sky High is a "do nothing for several seconds" button. There's very little depth to be found in this kit, let alone any unique gameplay flavor.

And considering BRD went from a DoT and Proc focused job to just another timer gauge job, just like the 3 other Evolved jobs showcased, I'm worried everything will be collapsed into that mold. Builder/spenders like RPR and RDM? Gone for timers and stickers. Every job seems to be collapsing into the mold of EW SMN.

Like so far, with what they've shown us, the direction seems to be more homogeneity and less depth, not more uniqueness and skill expression.

[Xieldras]

Give an evolved system that's actually serious about bringing back identity (instead of homogenizing bard into a whatever dps) and reintroducing complexity and rotational thought and agency and I'll stop complaining.

I hate reborn, but I also don't like what evolved served me at Fanfest, the more I can look at it with detachment. It's not good.

Make the masses desperate enough for change and they'll accept anything, or something like that.

Like the Dev team has the previous game design documents for Bard when it was super liked in SB, why not look back and integrate it back into play instead of turning it into Red DPS #18?

I don't personally understand why people say bringing PvP into PvE is a good idea, considering both game states are wildly different.

[Sarantserel]

I don't personally understand why people say bringing PvP into PvE is a good idea, considering both game states are wildly different.

100% agreed. PvP and PvE encounters are vastly different context. PvP is chaotic, with unpredictable incoming damage and stop/start fights. This leads to a lot of moment to moment decisions. There's also plenty of room to synergize in PvP context. Like a DRK timing their salted earth just when the AST buffed DRG lands in the middle of the pack.

PvP has great job identity, but its simplified kits only have depth and interesting gameplay consideration in the chaotic context of PvP. If that job design philosophy is just ported to PvE without PvE somehow changing to become just as chaotic and unpredictable, its just gonna lead to a more stale version of PvP.

[Xieldras]

100% agreed. PvP and PvE encounters are vastly different context. PvP is chaotic, with unpredictable incoming damage and stop/start fights. This leads to a lot of moment to moment decisions. There's also plenty of room to synergize in PvP context. Like a DRK timing their salted earth just when the AST buffed DRG lands in the middle of the pack.

PvP has great job identity, but its simplified kits only have depth and interesting gameplay consideration in the chaotic context of PvP. If that job design philosophy is just ported to PvE without PvE somehow changing to become just as chaotic and unpredictable, its just gonna lead to a more stale version of PvP.

PLD has a parry now if I remember, and BRD's repel shot is multidirectional. That implies they'll bring that fast-paced chaos into PvE. I personally had trouble with DT's pace and hated it, so my bet is that I'll hate the new one too.
Reminds me of that Elden Ring thread we had here months back since it feels relevant: Is this still the same game genre?

[Hanzz96]

The probem is they aren't just getting rid of the 2 minute meta. By removing raid buffs they are removing any reward that players got for playing in unity as a team which is important for a co-op game. It felt good to sync up buffs and have a nice burst window or in dancers case move dance partner in odd minutes to your VPR for double reawaken and a big dps boost which takes communication. I'm not overly against this going exactly but there needs to be something to replace it otherwise there is no difference between a party that plays well together and one that doesn't and that lowers the skill ceiling and floor even more.

The 2 minute meta is not the source of all evil with job design. A lot of the issues are that high end players want complexity and casuals want a much easier experience and SE doesn't know who to listen to and don't seem to be able to find a middle ground.

Evo mode costing jobs their current identity and skill is a net negative and we shouldn't have easy mode be the default. Bard lost dot management, OGCD management EA is now a follow up to another GCD and cannot be drifted or mismanaged because its just hit the glowing button. Bard also lost ALL RNG a key part of its identity. It was super fun to watch EA coming up with 2 PP procs and decide if you send PP at 2 stacks or less potency or wait for EA for a 3rd proc and risk overcap. Or seeing dot timers running low but you dont want to miss a tick and deciding if you risk another BS that could proc RA and if you do get that RA do you now send it and risk dots falling or hit iron jaws to refresh and risk overriding that proc? Entire fight segments can change based on if you have AABA ready from RNG gauge such as M9s second adds and it was fun. WHM lost casts, OGCD heals and now hits 1111 just like before but now its instant! PLD's new cover is stupid and total murder, its a gimick and not functional.

I've seen a lot of people saying Bard is playable now for example but it's always been playable and some found it great. Jobs shouldn't be dumbed down to try to cater to everyone instead of people accepting not all jobs are for them.

On the topic of tanks the split is stupid. Assuming OT can't take autos like MT or MT will lose damage by not holding threat then OT will 100% do more damage because they aren't meant to hold the boss. This along with the fact that OT will still have personals/invuln to take busters and apparently is focused on party mit compared to MT ahhh why would you ever bring an MT? OT will do more damage with more mit.

The split will make PF harder to fill and once again is another evo change that will rob a job in this case WAR of their current identity that being self heals.

Also say your static has a PLD who doesnt want to change and the other tank wants to play the new tank guess you're out of luck?

Change is needed but this is not quite the way