Main & Off Tanks: Name Change

[Absurdity]

Unless DRK, GNB and WAR get some serious party mitigation tools added and another version of reprisal. Right now PLD is looking like the best OT option especially if the counter procs from intervention or cover.

I can see it just as easily go the other way.
Since "off-tanks" still need to be able to eat tank busters and do the usual "tank stuff" because things like Criterion and forced swap busters exist, their damage output doesn't rely on counters and since they're the "support" tanks they might end up with more party mitigation.

[Supersnow845]

Giving all off tanks MORE mitigation than the mitigation monster that is PLD is so over the top that it would immediately neuter anything that isn’t balanced around it

[Absurdity]

Giving all off tanks MORE mitigation than the mitigation monster that is PLD is so over the top that it would immediately neuter anything that isn’t balanced around it

Which is why this split is nonsensical to begin with.
It hasn't really worked for healers and unless they want to actually exclude certain jobs from content it will never work for tanks either.

If Paladin keeps all it's party support because that's just what Paladin is known for, and the "Off-tanks" all keep their mitigation because they need to be able to tank properly, then what are we even doing here?
This is sticking a new label on things just to make it look like you changed something.

[Carighan]

It hasn't really worked for healers

Oh? Do elaborate.

This is sticking a new label on things just to make it look like you changed something.

Not quite, we'll see a difference like with healers. The two types of healers genuinely are different. They aren't entirely different to the point they are functionally two different roles entirely, if that's what you're getting at. But you'll not that not even DPS provide that. Melee DPS have ~100% uptime in modern fights, and casters are so mobile they also have factually 100% uptime. DPS are all just subroles that offer minor variations (casters have some skills that can be interrupted by moving, melee DPS have some moves that won't work if you're not close, PRanged have 1 extra group mit as as role).

There is no reason to assume that the tank split is being done to any different degree or for any different reason (being able to more readily house more classes in the framework) than for DPS or healers?

[Supersnow845]

Why would you think the healer split HAS worked

It’s just turned the 4 healers into the two good healers, the bad healer saved by the raid buff and the old ability it got BECAUSE it used to be a shield healer and the bad healer

[Carighan]

Why would you think the healer split HAS worked

Okay that was maybe the wrong way to approach that.

So more explicitly: What would you say would define "has worked" in the context of a subrole split? What was the goal that it failed to accomplish?

[Moqi]

lvl 100 healer skills:

White mage - mitigation focused
Astrologian - mitigation focused
Sage - pure healing focused
Scholar - pure healing focused

But sure the split has worked. Very identity focused.

[Supersnow845]

I would define a sub role split as feeling like your party is disadvantaged by not having the “designed” split and the classes should compliment each other and cover each others weaknesses while still filling the same role

Instead we get the shield healers doing everything and the regen healers ridiculously reliant on the shield healers to do everything g

[Absurdity]

Okay that was maybe the wrong way to approach that.

So more explicitly: What would you say would define "has worked" in the context of a subrole split? What was the goal that it failed to accomplish?

Pretty much what Snow already said.
A successful split to me would be if you simply can't get past certain mechanics without a "pure" healer's raw healing output and also can't get through other mechanics without the barrier healer's mitigation. Both of them being actually necessary for dual healer content.

What we ended up with however is barrier healers being generally necessary to survive party damage but pure healers being optional, sometimes just worse than running double barrier.

Which is also what I suspect will happen with the tank split. Either a complete nothingburger where you just take whichever tanks you want, or one of the two "sub" roles getting completely overshadowed by the other in both categories.

[Mikey_R]

I would define a sub role split as feeling like your party is disadvantaged by not having the “designed” split and the classes should compliment each other and cover each others weaknesses while still filling the same role

Instead we get the shield healers doing everything and the regen healers ridiculously reliant on the shield healers to do everything g

Are you disadvantaged using 2 shield healers over using a pure and shield healer? As that is the criterion you set out.