Genius Move from SE

[StarryVera]

The vuln also isn't really important, otherwise Manaward on BLM would also be useless.
Even in Savage you sometimes just take a vuln stack if it makes a mechanic easier to solve.

A job not just being designed around Raiding encounters and having more interesting skills with unique effects is exactly what people, me included, wanted. The implementation like the cut BRD Dots are a fair discussion but that jump is an absolute win for DRG imo.

So you just proved my guess that you haven't done a savage for multiple expansions because vuln stacks have not been a thing since Eden's Verse. Which was 6 years ago now. They can't just balance the game around what is "cool" that very quickly forces the raiding meta into absolute garbage because only the most boring and high dps jobs will get played, or do you really want another situation where a job is completely unplayable in high end content (Endwalker Launch Ninja). This is not a "have your cake and eat it too" if you want the game to continue to get better, jobs have to be playable in high end, and they have to be fun. Or you get situations like current SMN, where only the literal mains of the job are playing it in anything higher than an extreme.

There is a balance SE needs to make between how jobs play in high end and how they can play in everywhere else, and from what they have shown off currently they have failed miserably at making jobs look interesting from a gameplay perspective. They are flashy, sure, but not well designed.

[debleb]

Jesus we’re all such doomers here.

[Voidmage]

So you just proved my guess that you haven't done a savage for multiple expansions because vuln stacks have not been a thing since Eden's Verse. Which was 6 years ago now. They can't just balance the game around what is "cool" that very quickly forces the raiding meta into absolute garbage because only the most boring and high dps jobs will get played, or do you really want another situation where a job is completely unplayable in high end content (Endwalker Launch Ninja). This is not a "have your cake and eat it too" if you want the game to continue to get better, jobs have to be playable in high end, and they have to be fun. Or you get situations like current SMN, where only the literal mains of the job are playing it in anything higher than an extreme.

There is a balance SE needs to make between how jobs play in high end and how they can play in everywhere else, and from what they have shown off currently they have failed miserably at making jobs look interesting from a gameplay perspective. They are flashy, sure, but not well designed.

You can stop with this "you need to be a top raider to have an opinion" nonsense.
I have raided enough until the end of EW.
It doesn't matter if it's a vuln or a damage down or whatever. If your group wipes because a DRG takes one (which isn't even a given) then that's on you.

Your entire "balance first" is what got us into the mess with boring jobs in the first place, including the 2 min meta.
Jobs should NOT only be designed around a meta.
It is fine to not have perfect balance in everything.

In the past we even had skills that you could only use if the enemy was below a certain percent of HP. I raided when BLM could give others MP and when AST could screw your rotation over.
The raiding scene was still there and functioned.

Raiders aren't the only ones playing this game.
Even if someone never raided their life, their opinion would still be more than valid.
You will survive a DRG jump that reduces damage.

That's all by me regarding this. You can disagree or think I am a bad player for not raiding anymore, I don't care and I know that you have your opinion of the meta being the most most important or whatever.
What I care about is jobs actually being fun again, even outside raiding.
What you want is the least amount of changes just so it doesn't mess with the raiding scene. Yeah, no.

And I say that as someone who isn't even entirely sold in the evolved mode and was bitching about the BLM changes back then to no end.

Edit:
You reduce everything to flashiness when that's not really the case.
DRG's positionals for example are actually more now than just damage bonuses.
What I would agree that it's not enough that was shown.

Though to try to find some common ground, I do agree with you that job design shouldn't make raiding worse.
I just don't see how this one ability is the make or break in this case.
The whole thing isn't even a beta yet with all the unfinished text and there being no new skills. It's entirely too early to give up, though enough to give first feedback.

[Calysto]

Here's a reply to any person with these arguments :
-it's an early build
-it's almost a year away
-trust the process

The best time to raise our concerns is now. and it's maybe even too late by now as they said the existing jobs are already done.

CS3 had an awful track of listening to "real" feedback the past 7+ years.

They have the chance to try to fix it.
They should give us more information as soon as possible and be open to feedback.
At the very least, a direction and identity and addressing known concerns
At best mini dev-panels with M.Prime for each 'old' jobs and fundamentals of the evolved systems (if there's more than already shown)
By now, I don't really care about the "job action trailer'' of the last fanfest, the last 3 were awful ; and if you can glam actions it's even more pointless.

Show us what you got while it can be fixed. not at the last minute and tell us it's too late.

[Vallerie]

Never have I wished FFXIV had a PTR/public beta more than right now.

[TeresaFortell]

I honestly think they should keep some of the dot skills in jobs and put them in ogcds.

[YumieYumiki]

lmao if you believe that the number of buttons is what makes a job interesting

What I find interesting about is that they seem to be pushing the enveloppe (a little) with he combat mechanics. There's new timing and movement based mechanics that makes me hopeful that the result will be more than "press buttons in a different order than before", and perhaps, even some decision making and player agency could be involved in the gameplay?

I wonder what they'll do to ninja, though. I have a feeling that the mudra system was already setting it apart from the rest enough that they might not touch it that much.

[Valence]

Yup they have literally made the game an ARPG and thats not what I pay to play. I am very disappointed.

I didnt want FF16 combat, I don't like it. But here we are.

Let's be fair, it's been progressively turned into an ARPG as soon as everything turned to DDR and we certainly didn't have to wait for evolved to show up for this.

If anything evolved looks like it plays less like piano. The real issue is the encounter model and the lack of battle systems around jobs.

[Hanzz96]

If you think about it, it makes sense considering they are also launching on switch 2 now.
Perhaps it was part of their goal? Two birds with one stone. Then they can ween players off the more 'congested' combat system and go the path of convenience and simplicity and use it as justification for why they will introduce these kinds of changes, the community will then spend several months fighting against itself over this and blame the loss of complexity on switch players, yada yada.

Well I'm not a switch 2 player, I'm not a controller player, I'm not a casual player. I want complexity and turning bard into EW SMN 2.0 ain't it.

With what we have seen this is just an easy mode to appeal to a casual audience who don't like current job design because they think in between burst in boring because they aren't playing their job correctly and setting up for burst, instead they want to face roll their keyboard and have big glowing attacks happen. They also don't want to be punished for mistakes like breaking a combo or drifting an OGCD like EA which does happen in progression or when you just mess up and there needs to be a fail state here. Its an MMO not cozy gaming participation medal time.

I feel like people will learn that yes casual players are very important this expac but as high end players are chased out by this battle system lobotomy it will soon become apparent that both kinds of player are needed for this game to be healthy.

And to anyone saying "just play reborn." Reborn will be gutted without buffs, evo being stronger will make it meta and reborn will be locked out of high end PF's. Why would you take a reborn job into Ultmate ot Savage when you can bring evo with more dps for less work? Also its very likely enrage checks will be balanced around evo (SE can deny this but they will.)

[PaulH]

The cycle of the new expansion loop is in full swing.