Evolved BRD ?

[Connor]

Why do the songs still have to be so passive? They’re still just glorified stances. I’d probably have liked this version if they made our dps stances into actual dps stances and let the support be actual spells to maintain like they used to be with an actual resource cost.

But no, I guess it’s too taxing or something so let’s copy+paste an archery mechanic from Monster Hunter instead, because clearly the fair-voice poet class that sings to make people feel better needed to parkour more . Wide Volley already fulfills the ‘do a cool backflip attack’ animation goal anyway. Also frankly the animation of the cast attack was frankly so underwhelming, it looks awfully piddly for something you have to cast. Sage’s nigh-intangible Pneuma is more exciting lol - and you only know it works if you hear the sound of a plane taking off.

Also I can’t say I’m impressed by Bard songs getting the AST card treatment. Not like this, anyway. If the songs were separate effects from the dps rotation I’d possibly be into them, especially if they worked like songs used to (mp cost/drain, cast times, etc). But just random passive effects that you get for following your basic damage rotation? It sucked before when it was passive, small % damage boosts and it’ll suck when it’s a small regen.

And as I’ve said a million times before: if Monks suddenly starting punching things once every 20 seconds and throwing Fireballs the rest of the battle, people would very rightly say ‘what in the world is this monstrosity? It’s not a Monk or a Black Mage’. If they gave Dragoon jumps to Dancer but it’s ok because Dragoons have guns now? I simply cannot understand why that’s not ok to ask about XIV’s Bard. Even Sage at least follows the basic concept from the traditional version of ‘uses offensive and healing magic equally’ (in theory).

Evolved Bard really screams to me ‘we don’t know what to do with this job’s identity because we refuse to admit we screwed up from the start so here’s Summoner again but this time with parkour’. But it’s also hilarious that they only created Bard because they genuinely thought ‘nobody would want to play a Hunter job that just does arrows’, then spend the rest of the game’s lifespan reducing Bard to ‘Hunter job that just does arrows and has pulls a harp out their butt for 0.02 seconds every 20 seconds’. So much for ‘reinforced job identity’. I guess our identity now is…parkour? Idk

Also, as an aside find it really weird to imagine someone singing a full song in 20 second lol

[Carighan]

Why do the songs still have to be so passive? They’re still just glorified stances. I’d probably have liked this version if they made our dps stances into actual dps stances and let the support be actual spells to maintain like they used to be with an actual resource cost.

Yeah like older MMORPGs had bards "weave" multiple songs, keep up multiple buffs at once, but this also caused a variable mana-drain based on how much you wanted to play concurrently. So you were constantly enabling and disabling songs, something like that would also be pretty cool. Made you feel pretty "bardy", tbh.

[Emitans]

"No one would want to play a hunter with arrows"

Is this why we got an orbital laser in Dawntrail? I want arrows instead.

[ty_taurus]

Going with this direction, wouldn't the way to make the rotation feel more skill expressive be to then add more song phases? If you always need 3 different phases to reach your minute burst, and you have more than 3 options to choose from, you can start to make the Bard's choices matter.

[Carighan]

Going with this direction, wouldn't the way to make the rotation feel more skill expressive be to then add more song phases? If you always need 3 different phases to reach your minute burst, and you have more than 3 options to choose from, you can start to make the Bard's choices matter.

Yeah definitely. Would be kinda cool if that was the point, you only get to make 3 choices before you need to "reset" the cycle (and say that unlocks all the various sub-combos based on the choices and order of choices of your songs. But you have 6-9 songs.

[Mikey_R]

Going with this direction, wouldn't the way to make the rotation feel more skill expressive be to then add more song phases? If you always need 3 different phases to reach your minute burst, and you have more than 3 options to choose from, you can start to make the Bard's choices matter.

The thing is, it then comes down to damage. Which 3 do the most damage, you use those 3. By just giving you 3 songs from the start, you bypass that illusion of choice. If you want more songs, you have to have a use for them, otherwise, they just will not get used.

[ty_taurus]

The thing is, it then comes down to damage. Which 3 do the most damage, you use those 3. By just giving you 3 songs from the start, you bypass that illusion of choice. If you want more songs, you have to have a use for them, otherwise, they just will not get used.

It depends on how you construct the the song phases. For example, one of your songs has DOTs on them in evolved, so what if those DOTs were longer than Bard's 60 second burst cycle? Let's use 90 seconds as an example. Then, your fourth song will have a timing that you'll need to fluctuate your other songs around. But we could even take it a step further and have a DOT duration that's less clean, like 105 seconds. Now, your song rotation is still somewhat flexible, but has some aspect of structure that you adapt your rotation around. And if you want to take it even further, let's say you go with 105 seconds. You could then also have a song phase where the actions have higher potency when the target has more than 50 seconds or more remaining on the DOT durations, or when the target has 50 seconds or less, or both even. Maybe you have 5 songs, with the fifth phase being neutral to your DOT.

This is just an example, and you could take it in other directions, but there's a lot you could do to add aspects of structure that take your burst beyond hitting every button and bursting like Summoner and still have a rhythm beyond which phase has the highest potency.

[Carighan]

The thing is, it then comes down to damage. Which 3 do the most damage, you use those 3. By just giving you 3 songs from the start, you bypass that illusion of choice. If you want more songs, you have to have a use for them, otherwise, they just will not get used.

I could fix this if I got a free choice.

So here's my idea for a very song-centric setup:

* You have 9 songs total. They are now called "Stanzas".
* You have 3 buttons dedicated to stanzas.
* Each of those holds a fixed set of 3 of the 9 stanzas, but each "cycle" (begins with a stanza, ends with Perform) the order of stanzas on each button is random. You can only see the first stanza at first, you don't know which will be #2 and #3 on that button until you press it once.
* Each stanza adds an icon to the UI.
* Once you have three (no matter which), you can Perform, which actually creates the buff for the whole group, the effects of which are depending on which 3 stanzas were combined.
* Each of the 9 stanzas also adds a "combat element".
* Combat elements are all identical in total potency. They differ in AoE pattern, in GCD speed, in need or lack of castbar, in utility. Never in damage. So if one stanza gives you a 1.0s GCD chain of 5 shots you can do while moving of 400 potency each then all options you could get for "combat element #1" will be 400 potency/second.

So the idea would be: Select a stanza each and perform over ~10s (4 GCDs, these are all GCDs!). You are in bard-mode right now. After hitting Perform, you go into "archer mode", and your available actions (including replacing the 4 buttons used for stanzas + perform) change depending on stanzas used.

This could be pared down to the 3 songs they've shown, too.

[Mikey_R]

It depends on how you construct the the song phases. For example, one of your songs has DOTs on them in evolved, so what if those DOTs were longer than Bard's 60 second burst cycle? Let's use 90 seconds as an example. Then, your fourth song will have a timing that you'll need to fluctuate your other songs around. But we could even take it a step further and have a DOT duration that's less clean, like 105 seconds. Now, your song rotation is still somewhat flexible, but has some aspect of structure that you adapt your rotation around. And if you want to take it even further, let's say you go with 105 seconds. You could then also have a song phase where the actions have higher potency when the target has more than 50 seconds or more remaining on the DOT durations, or when the target has 50 seconds or less, or both even. Maybe you have 5 songs, with the fifth phase being neutral to your DOT.

This is just an example, and you could take it in other directions, but there's a lot you could do to add aspects of structure that take your burst beyond hitting every button and bursting like Summoner and still have a rhythm beyond which phase has the highest potency.

With a long DoT, the only worry is, would it just feel redundant, or just put there to justify having 4 songs.. For a 90 second duration, in a 12 minute fight, you would only use the DoT song 9 times. Others might disagree.

As for doing more damage with a longer duration left, there are 2 scenarios. If it is a damage gain to clip the DoTs early, it will be optimal to do that, which leaves you with the 2 song choices out of 3 to pick from before you have to refresh the DoT. If it is not a gain, it then turns Bard into a build resources and spend in a window job that seems to be what everyone dislikes about the current system. Use DoT, blow everything, wait for the resources to build up again, refresh the DoT and unload again. The same is true if the potency increase was on a lower duration left, it is just, this time, you have to wait 50 seconds before you unleash the arrows. Not

I could fix this if I got a free choice.

So here's my idea for a very song-centric setup:

* You have 9 songs total. They are now called "Stanzas".
* You have 3 buttons dedicated to stanzas.
* Each of those holds a fixed set of 3 of the 9 stanzas, but each "cycle" (begins with a stanza, ends with Perform) the order of stanzas on each button is random. You can only see the first stanza at first, you don't know which will be #2 and #3 on that button until you press it once.
* Each stanza adds an icon to the UI.
* Once you have three (no matter which), you can Perform, which actually creates the buff for the whole group, the effects of which are depending on which 3 stanzas were combined.
* Each of the 9 stanzas also adds a "combat element".
* Combat elements are all identical in total potency. They differ in AoE pattern, in GCD speed, in need or lack of castbar, in utility. Never in damage. So if one stanza gives you a 1.0s GCD chain of 5 shots you can do while moving of 400 potency each then all options you could get for "combat element #1" will be 400 potency/second.

So the idea would be: Select a stanza each and perform over ~10s (4 GCDs, these are all GCDs!). You are in bard-mode right now. After hitting Perform, you go into "archer mode", and your available actions (including replacing the 4 buttons used for stanzas + perform) change depending on stanzas used.

This could be pared down to the 3 songs they've shown, too.

If I understand this correctly, you have 3 Stanza buttons, call them 1, 2 and 3, each one has 3 Stanzas on them, call them A, B and C, then, your buttons start with a random mix of stanzas, say, 1A, 2C, 3A. You press 1A, that moves onto the next random stanza, leaving you with 1C, 2C and 3A. The bit I don't think I quite understand is whether you have to press a different Stanza button (1, 2, 3) or if you can press the same Stanza button per cycle (1A, 1B, 1C) to get effects, even mixing and matching, 1A, 2B, 1C.

It is worth noting that this isn't a solution to the original challenge, which was, you have a free choice of 4 songs, but you only need 3 for a cycle, how do you prevent just the strongest ones from being used. Yes, by making them all the same damage, it doesn't matter, so it is down to the buff that is given, but how much control do you have over that given the RNG nature of how the songs are presented to you. Plus, how many different combinations are wee looking at? Does it matter if I do all from Stanza A or all from Stanza B? If I mix and match, does it matter if I have Stanzas AAB or CBB. With to many combinations, you make it too hard to plan what you get out of it, so noone will really interact with that system, (also, obligatory, 'It's just Ninja Mudras/Monk's Perfect Balance' system, therefore bad comment).

I do admit though, a system where it gives you 3 random songs to use and you have to adapt on the fly could be interesting to play with.going to say it is a bad idea, I just don't think it would turn out that interesting.

[ty_taurus]

What I was thinking about with a DOT song is creating an anchor point to your rotation to give it structure, something that wouldn’t need to be a part of every minute cycle. But my example is more meant to be a frame of reference rather than a concrete suggestion. But one could argue that having reasons to consider holding your dot song or reapplying your dots slightly early could become a positive example of skill expression.

However, Bard is not my specialty, so I’m sure there are others who could develop the idea more strongly than I. That said, I was also thinking about having random songs. You have Bardsong I, II, and III, and a permanent uptime buff on the GCD with a max duration you manage, and each use grants 3 random, different songs to your Bardsong actions for one use each. So finding the right order and timing could be an interesting thing to consider as well. But again, it’s not my forte so it’s not quite my place to make as drastic of suggestions, I feel.”