Please Reconsider Splitting Main and Off-Tank Roles Based on Job

[Sazuzaki]

As others have said, the split is there probably so they can use mechanics like counterattacks and such without having all of the tanks fight for aggro for the DPS gain. If they're going to commit to the split, I hope they'll go further in the idea of taking damage to deal damage; something like a reverse Wildfire where the more hits you take, the higher the potency of the attack. Vice versa with the OTs and the way they play. I think if they nail this, it could do a lot to break up the years of stagnation that we've seen with tank design.

[Mukuku]

As others have said, the split is there probably so they can use mechanics like counterattacks and such without having all of the tanks fight for aggro for the DPS gain.

That would not solve the problem in the duty finder unless they enforce the split there too, which I don't see happening.

If they're going to commit to the split, I hope they'll go further in the idea of taking damage to deal damage; something like a reverse Wildfire where the more hits you take, the higher the potency of the attack. Vice versa with the OTs and the way they play. I think if they nail this, it could do a lot to break up the years of stagnation that we've seen with tank design.

Good old Vengeance in WoW MoP... Very fun times as Blood DK main, but there are good reasons it got scrapped.

The lesson learned is yet again and again: if you tie DPS to something, expect the players to abuse it.

While tying DPS to taking damage sounds interesting on paper, that would incentivize players taking damage, which is really not a good idea.

[Mikey_R]

That would not solve the problem in the duty finder unless they enforce the split there too, which I don't see happening.

That's no difference to now though, the have said the DF does try and put a pure and shield healer together and try to get at least 1 melee, 1 caster and 1 phys ranged (or at least keep 2 different flavours of DPS in 4 man) when making parties. Of course, they are going to add contingencies so a role doesn't potentially end up in purgatory, not able to get in a party, but this will be no different if they added this for tanks.

[whiskeybravo]

As others have said, the split is there probably so they can use mechanics like counterattacks and such without having all of the tanks fight for aggro for the DPS gain. If they're going to commit to the split, I hope they'll go further in the idea of taking damage to deal damage; something like a reverse Wildfire where the more hits you take, the higher the potency of the attack. Vice versa with the OTs and the way they play. I think if they nail this, it could do a lot to break up the years of stagnation that we've seen with tank design.

That's one take. Or it could be not damage based at all and just a "counter" for additional mitigations. They already yeeted Shield Swipe long ago, bringing it back isn't going to cure "years of stagnation". And again, say they do "nail it", it's only Main Tanks that get to enjoy less stagnation?

If they do end up "nailing it", then yea we might look back and say it was a good idea. Otherwise it's not really a given that it will be better or more interesting for either (or both) role(s).

[Sazuzaki]

They already yeeted Shield Swipe long ago, bringing it back isn't going to cure "years of stagnation". And again, say they do "nail it", it's only Main Tanks that get to enjoy less stagnation?

That's the thing my guy, we literally do not know. I understand the concern surrounding it and see it as an open discussion, but I do see a lot of people acting... disingenuous. If the counter is nothing more than a Shield Swipe? Yeah, that would suck, but you should try to consider other possibilities as well. From what I've seen, it definitely hits harder than Shield Swipe and grants a buff of some sort. Is it a damage buff? It would probably be used in unison with your burst; get the counter buff and then try to fit as much damage into that buff as possible like if FoF was tied to your counter. It could also be a regen, which would be kind of boring, but who knows? You're right that it could be total butt cheeks, but it could be pretty cool as well. We can't even say if it'll only be MTs that get less stagnation because they didn't show any OTs. However, I stay hopeful due to them putting more emphasis on job identity.

I did want to point out how you criticize the idea of people saying tanks being overly homogenized as an overly reductionist idea, but you're doing exactly that right here with by just assuming the new counter would be nothing more than Shield Swipe.

[whiskeybravo]

I did want to point out how you criticize the idea of people saying tanks being overly homogenized as an overly reductionist idea, but you're doing exactly that right here with by just assuming the new counter would be nothing more than Shield Swipe.

Perhaps, but it's only 1 of 2 examples we've ever seen of their idea of a "counter". The other at least standing the test of time, just not as a counter. They could just design the new tank to be the counter tank, or you know, just add/change abilities that function as counters, or any other type of gimmick they come with up, without forcing a paradigm shift on the entire role. And, I understand they want to keep people on the drip for what they're actually doing, but come on - lead with the bombshell first - Not something you're resurrecting from the grave.

[Terhix]

(...) lead with the bombshell first - Not something you're resurrecting from the grave.

I mean, have you seen the DRG?

Folks here are so laser-focused on the tank role split you might be missing the forest for the trees. The main stated goal of Evolved Mode is "Emphasizing Individuality". PLD didn't get anything flashy like Sky High or left/right positionals or a completely different True North, but PLD already has tools no other tank has in Passage (now with an extra heal), Cover (now off-gauge and with buddy dash), Clemency, and its burst being completely ranged.

OTs are not getting a blanket rotational change like a counter? Fine by me. I don't want DRK, WAR, and GNB to be reskins of one another. Whether they're gonna succeed time will only tell.

[whiskeybravo]

I mean, have you seen the DRG?

The thing is, that's been being asked for by the community pretty much since the game launched.

Who asked for MT/OT split? I certainly can't claim to know more than a small % of all the discussion over the years, but I've been lurking on and off for most of them and I don't recall any serious commentary on it.

[Terhix]

The thing is, that's been being asked for by the community pretty much since the game launched.

Really? Have people been asking about DRG getting left/right positionals and jumps removing positional requirements since the game launched, or have they just been asking for a DRG to play more like proper FF DRG? On that note, I can probably dig out about half a dozen threads where people discuss DRK HP sacrifice and how that wouldn't work in current PvE, one is currently on the front page.

You can argue that it's not required to de-homogenize tanks, and that's also fine and true, but it's also true that the split does make the de-homogenization easier by opening a lot of design space that's currently off limits. Shield Swipe was removed precisely because it locked PLD into MT, did you hear the audience cheer when they showed PLD doing a counter attack?

[Sazuzaki]

And, I understand they want to keep people on the drip for what they're actually doing, but come on - lead with the bombshell first - Not something you're resurrecting from the grave.

Full agree there. If you're gonna do a split like that and only show one side, people are bound to be skeptical. But the thing with counters is yes, they have implemented them in the past, and no, it was not a very interesting implementation. But it could've been. XIV's developers tend to 'overcorrect' themselves when one thing happens to be wrong and end up tossing the whole idea out (dark arts). Let's imagine if PLD in 7.0 had Shield Swipe and it gave you an additional 15% mitigation for 10 seconds; you could wait for the boss to auto-attack right before an upcoming tank buster and use it to stack another 15% mit on top of your existing mitigation and become nigh-unkillable. It could've actually rewarded you for good play and mitigating as a tank. I'm hopeful for the new counters because you must time your mitigation to get the full effect, and there's a lot of speculation going on as to what that buff in the showcase might be.