Please Reconsider Splitting Main and Off-Tank Roles Based on Job

[Yuoaman]

I, as a long time Gunbreaker main tank, don't appreciate that the upcoming Evolved mode is dictating that I, in fact, am a natural off-tank. I don't mind the roles being more clearly defined, but for all their talk of "freedom," this is exceptionally limiting. I think a better option would be a toggle within the mode that signals whether the player is using main-tank or off-tank variations of skills.

[Sjofn]

I'm a dark knight main tank and I cannot second this strongly enough. If player freedom is the goal, this is a step backwards for tank players specifically. It's especially crazy to me that only one of the established tanks gets to be considered a main tank.

I've been main tanking for ages, and I just do not want to stop being a dark knight, a class I love the look and feel of no matter how often it gets changed, because suddenly in savage I'm supposed to be an off tank. It doesn't help that the other tank I love is gunbreaker!

Stances make so much more sense, please consider something like that instead.

[SarahSyna]

I'm signing up just to co-sign this. I don't like this change, I think it's extremely restrictive for tank players. What if someone is a born MT but they're a Gunbreaker main or something?

[StriderShinryu]

I generally agree, and I don't even really play tank much. I can totally understand the desire to "assign" a main and off tank and think it could actually work really well if supplemented by skills and abilities, but locked specific jobs into one of the two roles feels like an over reach. Would definitely be better as a toggle or to have your skills/abilities change in function depending on which of the two roles you choose to take on at the start of the duty.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Having watched the liveletter, I am reserving my full judgment once we learn more about job changes for Reborn & Evolved mode. (I will be referring to jobs as <job>-R and <job>-E for their Reborn and Evolved versions)


MT/OT designation on Job-E Modes may actually just imply that the toolkit for the Evolved mode of that job will be better suited for said role. This means a WAR-E, DRK-E and GNB-E will be better suited for OT tasks, PLD-E and new-E will be better suited for MT tasks, but that does not mean you can't have double MT-E or double OT-E work out and it may very well be fight dependent.


Furthermore, depending on how the general job changes will be coming into Evercold, DRK-R, WAR-R and GNB-R will very likely still be extremely potent main tanks regardless, just like how PLD-R might be an exceptional off-tank. The new tank's kit for potential off-tank duties may also need to be considered.


What we pick as Main Tanks and Off-Tanks could very much boil down to emergence/preference and may likely deviate based on raid culture/planning vs what they "intended" for those designation. After all, we have been doing content with double Barrier healers for some time now. All in all, I do give credit for them to try new things. Feedback of now should be at least considered or looked into, but not be the only relevant factor for future decisions.

[Terhix]

If that means the tanks will stop being homogenized to hell I'm all for the change.

[Mikey_R]

MT/OT designation on Job-E Modes may actually just imply that the toolkit for the Evolved mode of that job will be better suited for said role. This means a WAR-E, DRK-E and GNB-E will be better suited for OT tasks, PLD-E and new-E will be better suited for MT tasks, but that does not mean you can't have double MT-E or double OT-E work out and it may very well be fight dependent.

It is worth noting that I do not think it is going to be really strict. Having gone back over the Paladin section of the dev panel, Holy Sheltron and Intervention both have similar sounding buffs (Surcoat/Shield of Satisfaction and Surcoat/Shield of Answer), so it is likely that, even if Paladin is not infront of the boss, they can still proc their counter moves. Whether a similar system is in place for the Off tanks, we obviously do not know, but I suspect there will be (though, obviously it will not be counter based).

[Xaiken]

Agreed. If the distinction of MT an OT is impactful enough, OTs dying to tank busters or the party dies from lack of OT mits, then its forcing players to bring one of each, which prohibits people from being able to play the jobs they want, directly contradicting their goal of giving player agency to play what they want. But on the flip side if MTs and OTs can perform each other's roles then whats the point of the distinction to begin with at all? Honestly this same issue extends to Pure and Barrier Healers.

I also believe the best solution to have a meaningful distinction between MT and OT while letting players play what they want is to have a toggle stance that alters some of their actions to act as an MT or OT role.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

But on the flip side if MTs and OTs can perform each other's roles then whats the point of the distinction to begin with at all? Honestly this same issue extends to Pure and Barrier Healers.

Honestly, quite simple - regardless which sub-role, you will be able to do both tasks sufficiently, but Evolved MTs will likely be a 8-9/10 for MT-related tasks and a 6/10 for OT-related tasks and vice versa for Evolved OTs.

The same already kinda applies with Barrier healers anyhow, which is why bringing double barrier healer will let you mitigate virtually everything, but direct healing output is not as straight-forward as having a dedicated Pure Healer. Theoretically, you could also run double Pure Healer nowadays, but an AST's Neutral sect application and everyone else's mitigation tools need to be on point to do so and you will very much want a tank with a barrier-based mitigation tool (Divine Veil, Shake it Off).

(the problem with double Pure healer is primarily that mitigation tends to be king as continous/frequent top-ups of damage taken just hasn't been a thing as much as it could be)

[floofykyn]

I'm willing to wait and see but this has taken the wind out of my sails entirely. I haven't done much beyond the first two extremes this expac and I was fine being off or on tank, and the expac before i was off tank one tier and main tank the next, so I don't... need to main tank all the time.

I even like Paladin fine. But I don't like that If I want to main tank I'm gonna have to play it or the new tank. Dark Knight is my favorite job...