Patch 7.5 Discussion Thread

**Scintilla** · 05-02-2026 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Alahard

That is what I have noticed in FL also. Had a match yesterday where 20+ BH happened on a team within minutes and ignored the objectives just by wrapping around and pinching one team from behind.
Guess which team won in total domination shortly after.

In all honesty, this was able to happen anyway, even before these BH changes. One coordinated team flanking and wiping the other two would've got to BH5 in no time and with the two wiped teams still likely to be low BH, it would've been hard then to catch up.

The BH change, while not perfect, was supposed to help by:
1. Rewarding the victims with more BH points when they did kill one of the coordinated team (whereas before they would just get a set amount)
2. Allowing the victims to keep their BH if they got wiped again, still maintaining their chance to regroup and counter (whereas before they would've been 'reset')

Where the theory falls apart is that the victim teams often become victims through their own passiveness. They don't push to gain BH, so they don't gain it. Partially because of this:

The fact that ignoring the objective, in an objective based pvp mode is just so significant to winning seems wrong.

It is a PvP duty. I'm not saying that objectives have no place or value, as they can heavily influence a game, but they are somewhat secondary. Dominate in PvP, farm your BH, and the objectives tend to come easily.

Too many games have ended in a loss because the team were focusing on a long fight with 3rd place over an S-Rank, while the winning team were allowed to take an A rank unchallenged. Why? "S is worth more".
How many times have I read the phrase "Let them fight"?
Or "Ignore mid" in Onsal, despite the mid node being the one to hand first place the win, while they went off to fight 3rd place for another node because "mid is a waste of time".
Entire teams running back to get an uncontested node just outside of respawn.
Teams just running to whatever objective spawns first/closest, again, with no attention to score
And that's not to mention the objective-focus in Shatter...

Edit:
For example:

First Seal Rock game of the day. Yellow on the edge of winning, they're pushing red back, farming them for points. Meanwhile blue.... yep, they just sat there.

At least with the loss of BH on death you could potentially de power an overwhelming foe.

You could, true. But, if they were that overwhelming, chances are they'd regain that BH pretty quickly anyway. It'd be a loss for them sure, but unlikely something game-changing.

The change seems to have been intended to hand casuals more support. But, as usual, many of them aren't bothering to use the gift that's been given to them.

**ChrysOCE** · 05-01-2026 07:02 AM

I'd love to find these games where you guys are getting close fought matches down to the wire. Mostly, they have been blowouts with it being incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to claw back advantage from any team that gets to an initial lead. You can claw back some points, from kills. But you can't really take any advantage off the lead team. You chip their points, they just come right back, with their full BH and unload their reset abilities on you.

**jollibeelovely** · 05-01-2026 09:11 AM

as a pvp main im devastated by the changes in battle high. i'm considering taking a break from playing for a while u_u);

we are already seeing skilled players divebomb unsuspecting teams without consequence of losing their bh if they die. battle high five does NOTHING to help people who still don't know what they're doing - it's also bad from a strategic perspective because you have no idea who to focus attack, who to protect; who got their BHV from earning it and who got it from afking? this is like dumbing down savage raids because the people who dont even like savage can't clear it.

i don't understand what the intent was. if they wanted to drive engagement up, battle high was never the problem. people didn't avoid fights because they didn't want to lose battle high, it came from an inherent fear of getting your butt kicked, which is just how pvp goes!

if they wanted teams to focus on overall score instead of personal gain, players are STILL not paying attention to the score, and once again, battle high was not relevant to that issue. in the matches i've been playing, it hasn't made any difference in shortening the gap between team scores either. i had a team on onsal end with only 800/1400 points, and that won't be the first or last time we see that.

this change does not level out the playing field by putting everyone on equal ground. even if all 72 players had permanent battle high five, this makes coordinated team bursts even more devastating, because they can now do all that damage in a shorter span of time, and no one can stop them, and they go unpunished for it, and they are doing it again, and again, and again.

this also discourages improvement. most people already don't care about the outcome of their game and now they don't even care about personally doing well. when i was first starting out, i didn't really see the appeal of battle high - but as i was getting assists and knockouts, and getting more and more battle high, it was motivation to get better, so i could achieve battle high five AND keep it. it's risky, but it's an accomplishment, a reward that is *earned*. why work hard when you can get to the same place by doing nothing?

it seems like this change came from a gross misunderstanding of pvp, which is not surprising considering that people can still have the pvp mentor crown without ever stepping foot into pvp, but still incredibly disappointing. i think the worst part is, NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS. there are endless very valid critiques and complaints about the current frontlines system and instead of fixing any of that, they added a change that no one even considered asking for. it brings on heaps and heaps more of problems that i'm unsure they'll ever do anything about because this change comes from such a tone-deaf place.

i'll be huffing copium that they'll consider walking this back

**Fawkes** · 05-01-2026 09:55 AM

This feels like "Battle High is going away in 8.0, enjoy it while you can"

**Esmoire** · 05-01-2026 10:29 AM

When they make balance changes for melee, they have to understand that, in the context of Frontline, melee is the hardest role to play well. But when you do, it has the highest payout. We are by far the best role overall at a certain skill threshold. We're absurdly sturdy while having incredible burst, but it takes a lot of awareness to know how to play that aggressively, especially prior to the battle high change. Having that said, you can't really balance melee around overall usage statistics. More than any of the other roles, you're just going to get more people struggling to get anywhere with it. There's really few people in an informed position that uses Swift, so you can't use the poor usage rates of Swift as a metric. You should really get data from people who clearly understand the role.

On that note, viper, the heavenly emperor of padding, is already one of the most annoying jobs in the game. I am not saying it's over or underpowered. It's just not fun to fight. It was already an annoying job to fight, and it's not fun gameplay to use MNK/RPR/DNC LB to have to go through their relatively short CD that's accelerated by all the practically free assists they get for just existing. Please reconsider the 60% passive damage reduction on viper (and 55% DR on GNB, on that note). If your metrics insist the job needs help for some reason, buff it in anything that's not related to their stall-based gameplay loop.

**ChrysOCE** · 05-01-2026 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Esmoire

When they make balance changes for melee, they have to understand that, in the context of Frontline, melee is the hardest role to play well. But when you do, it has the highest payout. We are by far the best role overall at a certain skill threshold. We're absurdly sturdy while having incredible burst, but it takes a lot of awareness to know how to play that aggressively, especially prior to the battle high change. Having that said, you can't really balance melee around overall usage statistics. More than any of the other roles, you're just going to get more people struggling to get anywhere with it. There's really few people in an informed position that uses Swift, so you can't use the poor usage rates of Swift as a metric. You should really get data from people who clearly understand the role.

On that note, viper, the heavenly emperor of padding, is already one of the most annoying jobs in the game. I am not saying it's over or underpowered. It's just not fun to fight. It was already an annoying job to fight, and it's not fun gameplay to use MNK/RPR/DNC LB to have to go through their relatively short CD that's accelerated by all the practically free assists they get for just existing. Please reconsider the 60% passive damage reduction on viper (and 55% DR on GNB, on that note). If your metrics insist the job needs help for some reason, buff it in anything that's not related to their stall-based gameplay loop.

Well, apparently Viper is struggling a little in CC. I mean, we all know the specific job balance stuff is only related to CC and never factors in FL. It's just the role action stuff. And no self respecting melee picks up Swift. Smite is S-tier for role action. But they buffed it anyway. Though, actually, it would be super super funny if they came out and said, yea, actually, job balance stuff does factor in FL. Could you imagine...

**Esmoire** · 05-01-2026 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Well, apparently Viper is struggling a little in CC. I mean, we all know the specific job balance stuff is only related to CC and never factors in FL. It's just the role action stuff. And no self respecting melee picks up Swift. Smite is S-tier for role action. But they buffed it anyway. Though, actually, it would be super super funny if they came out and said, yea, actually, job balance stuff does factor in FL. Could you imagine...

Of course, and they should balance PvP jobs around CC, just like PvE jobs should be balanced around high-end content. That said, in FL, jobs have separate modifiers for damage dealt/taken and LB generation specifically for this purpose. If a job was already good in FL gets a buff for CC, it just makes it all the more easy to adjust it in FL without having to consider how it impacts CC. I don't think any job should have more than 50% passive DR honestly.

**ThreeBeastSmile** · 05-01-2026 03:06 PM

I didn't know what the changes actually meant until I saw it via a stream. So it's just... nobody ever loses BH now? Like Soaring in RW?

Why? They already made it easier to get BH, why on earth this too? I just don't understand. Unrelated to what it even means to match flow itself, that's a hell of a lot of useless screen clutter for how pronounced a BH5 icon is. And most people will have it now, right..?

Gdi I just came back, enjoyed my time in the new map (one of the very few it appears) and then... this.

<sigh>

Yeah, I tentatively agree with an earlier post. This almost seems like a precursor to full removal. Stupid imo, BH as a system isn't bad, but what they've been doing to it over time is that's for sure. I liked it when it was just battle high and battle frenzy tbqh. Frenzy was harder to attain and maintain, and a lot of those that did became battle shy as soon they did get it (even though visible on the map), so making them useless lol. Proper boon and bane situation.

Also, no punishment for stupidly brazen gameplay is just laaaaaaaaaaame. I'd snort at daft SAMs doing their "werth it!!" LBs only to drop down to BH2 or whatever, every time, but now they can just do that all the time sans the shame BH loss? Being able to navigate out of the swarm after an LB (with decent yield) was a badge of honour. Now it just doesn't matter, you'd be better off going kamikaze like those ones do?

<sigh>
Again.

/mykneejerkreaction

I'll play on when I do, but I'm not happy with the sound and look of this at all. If the goal was to make more people less spineless, it may, but their effectiveness levels...? Idk man. Doubt that it's gonna cause an increase in aptitude or whatever it was they were actually aiming for. We'll see. Maybe. Maybe the fear of dying really is that mind-numbing, and with it being less profound there'll be an improvement?.. That's a big leap of faith though.

But also... why not just make it outright like Soaring then? But with like... I don't know, smaller increments up to a stack of 30-40? It's just too easy to cap out right now, for the players that care.

Ah yes, and finally: Smite changes LMAO. Does that even need a comment as to why it's insanity? Nah, didn't think so. I'm already on the side of those that benefit as a melee main, and that's crazy work seeing that.

Extra: quick skim of some JP stuff, and there's actually positive press for it. Uh-oh.

[the thread for those interested, "Frontline Improvement Requests"]

(3 out of 4 I randomly checked across that page and the previous one had praise for it. Region diff?)

**Scintilla** · 05-01-2026 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by ThreeBeastSmile

Extra: quick skim of some JP stuff, and there's actually positive press for it. Uh-oh.

(3 out of 4 I randomly checked across that page and the previous one had praise for it. Region diff?)

From what I understand, the approach to PvP within the JP community and the EU community are vastly different.

JP tend to be more driven and performance focused than EU, who largely take the 'who cares' attitude. They'll more readily engage within PvP and an aggressive style of play and will willingly follow the lead of commanders. I've seen commanded games there myself and heard of games in which all 3 teams are led by a commander, leading to very tactical and aggressive play. That's not to say that's what every JP player/game is like, but there seems to be more engagement with PvP there.

EU, on the other hand, has a huge proportion of 'don't care' players. Most are only there to do their roulette and get out, with many playing while watching a show on another screen or just outright AFK. Some will intentionally feed the winning team purely to try to end the game faster. There is a lot of PvP-avoidance and objective-focus in EU games ("let them fight, get the nodes" etc.) because of the attitude and experience of much of the playerbase. Unlike JP who will look to support commanders, a lot of EU players don't bother, either ignoring their commanders calls or being downright rude towards them. And best chance you'll have of seeing a fully commanded game in EU is during PvP community events where many regulars will queue up together to compete.

That said, having only played a couple of FL games on the JP data-centers myself, everything I'm saying is largely based upon experiences I've heard from PvP friends who do play across the communities. But there does seem to be a notable difference between EU and JP approaches to FL. Whether this is part of what's contributing towards a difference in reaction to the changes, perhaps.

**ThreeBeastSmile** · 05-02-2026 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Scintilla

From what I understand, the approach to PvP within the JP community and the EU community are vastly different.

Oh I know they have their differing playstyle. If you go and run a translator over it though that's the ????

They sound even more scared to play melee than over here, and they have a strong preference for ranged. Still, the lack of confidence in their words for the melee position is perplexing. Could be a translation limitation though.

I've observed that their matches can have rather low overall damage output lately (or last I peeked anyway), which only emphasizes how little slugfest-ish PvP they do outside of what commander-san demands of them. It's one very quick clash and leave on maps like SR.

When I've participated myself, I've been delighted by their bemusement observing my madcap roamer antics, and the confusion is mutual when sometimes they just... don't seem to know what to do about my hyper aggression and I'm just wondering wth is going on lol. This was mostly on BR though; I only really went over there for BR (besides arena) after hearing they prefer to do splits on bases, many moons ago. I really don't like how they play the other maps, though I have rolled with them some.

I mean, respect to the overclocked hive cohesion (on average) I guess, but it's just my polar opposite. I enjoy more chaos, and I don't especially care to be directed around like a drone. It's not fun to me to do stuff by exhaustively basic rote on cooldown, then be idle all other times. Also the ping...

tl;dr Reading that they like the changes based on the spooks around playing melee is just sorta disheartening, that's all.

~~~

Originally Posted by Valence

Before that patch, could you elaborate on why you'd not use Swift on melee?

Yep. Yep.

(Although I did use Swift on MNK as standard, never did use it on anything else)

[also going to spoiler this reply rather than make two separate posts]

SAM Bloodbath - old synergy from ShB. Chiten reflect procs under it are very strong and I've survived some pretty hard focus even with a MNK LB thrown in. I've had far greater LB yields than with using Swift. Escape principle is simple: since you're leaning heavily into Bloodbath to heal, you'll have more MP to stack Resilience against Meikyo immunity overlap. Really just depends how well you use those windows. You can rather easily stroll away tbqh. Just don't overstay, be aware of your remaining options, and be aware of just what's looking at you that can do a thing that's not normal cc. (Also it was stronger in previous patches where it was 6 secs, then 4 secs, then 5 secs now).

RPR Smite - RPR has literally wraith-like elusiveness on a short cooldown that allows you to pop in, execute, and return over a distance of up to 30y. Also extra damage under its damage compiler Death Warrant. No-brainer choice.

DRG Bloodbath - my least played melee. The +damage they added beefs up LB further though and ofc gives DRG a bit more sustain than they would normally have.

NIN Smite - incredibly oppressive when LB is ready in being able to easily edge HP into the threshold near instantly following a no shot attack (or intentionally combo'd). The fact that it even has 10y range and ofc resets on kill before the patch as well. This is what prompted my reaction, since now not even a pre-emptive Guard is that useful against it.

VPR Bloodbath/Smite - when native Backlash leech is somehow not good enough? Bloodbath got ya back. Smite I stopped using as much after the attack buff on Bloodbath got added to it, but Smite was just to increase overall lethality and also taking advantage of World-swallower's debuff.

All in all, if you had confidence in how to get out of a situation, it was better to take something other than Swift imo. Still is.

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