Normal editor tools. When?

[Solowing]

In plenty of cases you already have a good idea, the game just prevents you placing things the way you want it.

The entire trial and error to see what is possible is the main reason housing feels very clunky. You need to do strange workarounds to get a lot of things to be possible. Skipping that and just being able to build it, is extremely helpful for creativity. Far too often i see the floor tiles clipping into each other, because there is only a limited number of ways to get them up, and aligning them isnt possible. Free XYZ movement can make this trivial, and opens up a lot more ways to even use it. Half of the time things look bad, because stuff just doesnt align as you imagined, or the game prevents you placing it.

Now imagine trying out certain combinations, its a huge chore to constantly rebuild the same thing, because the supporting object can be changed to several things. But removing that object means the rest of the stack also is removed. Its not helping creativity, it makes people more tempted to just shortcut it and leave it as is, even if its not perfect to them.

In my case i just skipped using those tricks in my house entirely, as i just couldnt be bothered doing these things, when a diffirent idea doesnt face those problems at all.

As if housing is a competition like F1... Even if there is a competition going on, the skills for building stuff shouldnt even matter. In fact, there are competitions in which you arent even forced to bend those rules that are closer to this housing stuff: Render competitions.
A good old classic in tf2 mapping as well. You get a tiny space, and a fixed camera point in that space. You can rotate the camera 360 degrees, and are forced to impress others. Even though you can still go beyond the border using a skybox trick (the space limit is essentialy done to force this to be used), the idea of impressing doesnt change.

But for most people decorating a house is not a competition. Its to be a fun activity, where you can show off your own creativity and thats it. Do you want an ugly room with a lot of floating things, so be it. Not my concern.

Skill floor meet ceiling. Sure those who couldn't meet the skill ceiling got the floor raised up for them. But everyone was already raised above the ceiling is now stuck at the floor with no ability to move outside the ceiling. Because beyond the ceiling is seen as gatekeeping so always make sure the floor can touch the ceiling.

[Solowing]

In plenty of cases you already have a good idea, the game just prevents you placing things the way you want it.

The entire trial and error to see what is possible is the main reason housing feels very clunky. You need to do strange workarounds to get a lot of things to be possible. Skipping that and just being able to build it, is extremely helpful for creativity. Far too often i see the floor tiles clipping into each other, because there is only a limited number of ways to get them up, and aligning them isnt possible. Free XYZ movement can make this trivial, and opens up a lot more ways to even use it. Half of the time things look bad, because stuff just doesnt align as you imagined, or the game prevents you placing it.

Now imagine trying out certain combinations, its a huge chore to constantly rebuild the same thing, because the supporting object can be changed to several things. But removing that object means the rest of the stack also is removed. Its not helping creativity, it makes people more tempted to just shortcut it and leave it as is, even if its not perfect to them.

In my case i just skipped using those tricks in my house entirely, as i just couldnt be bothered doing these things, when a diffirent idea doesnt face those problems at all.

As if housing is a competition like F1... Even if there is a competition going on, the skills for building stuff shouldnt even matter. In fact, there are competitions in which you arent even forced to bend those rules that are closer to this housing stuff: Render competitions.
A good old classic in tf2 mapping as well. You get a tiny space, and a fixed camera point in that space. You can rotate the camera 360 degrees, and are forced to impress others. Even though you can still go beyond the border using a skybox trick (the space limit is essentialy done to force this to be used), the idea of impressing doesnt change.

But for most people decorating a house is not a competition. Its to be a fun activity, where you can show off your own creativity and thats it. Do you want an ugly room with a lot of floating things, so be it. Not my concern.

Since its all about expression.

Oh yeah, I'd like the 1.0 neck tattoo. Since it's all about creativity right?

Its not about the effort or what's put into it. That not makes it meaningful, its the end result right?

Why do they get to gatekeep the 1.0 tattoo from the masses? that's not fair, who's against more customization?

[Moon_Rabbit]

In plenty of cases you already have a good idea, the game just prevents you placing things the way you want it.
The entire trial and error to see what is possible is the main reason housing feels very clunky. You need to do strange workarounds to get a lot of things to be possible. Skipping that and just being able to build it, is extremely helpful for creativity.

Sorry to say, but its a waste of time. I made this topic with a purpose to collect some info about iproves of housing system. While this cat is constantly tapping huge essays about "why the loss of primitive tools is bad".
Sounds kinda selfish as for me, to want restrictions for everyone in order to be able to get some fun for yourself. Anyway, SE already said that they worked in this direction and it brings a bit of optimism.

[Solowing]

Sorry to say, but its a waste of time. I made this topic with a purpose to collect some info about iproves of housing system. While this cat is constantly tapping huge essays about "why the loss of primitive tools is bad".
Sounds kinda selfish as for me. Anyway, SE already said that they worked in this direction and it brings a bit of optimism.

You know what's selfish, saying "hey that's not fair they can do something I don't want to do, lower the bar!"

Dawntrails ideals, Endwalker posturing.

Nope, rise up to tell the limits "get bent"

[Themarvin]

"Were looking into it"

I'ma stick with the ways of old. It really forces you to think outside the box and get creative. It burns me out. But the results feel....Perfect. Like a journey up a hiking trail, and when you get to the top, you get to look down at your creation and soak it all in. All the obstacles, all the little moments where you stop and see the space taking shape, all the little detours you have to take because the easiest route to take is blocked off. And the end result is never how I imagined it in my head, but its perfect as it is, because I made it perfectly. Its a puzzle in a journey and at the end of it you get to bask in its completion. Congrats, you completed the journey!

I get why people want it. But once you start digging into it. You dig into it. Ive shown friends how to try to use the system by not looking at its limitations but what creativity is shaped by the spaced they are confined in. Their design take a massive quality jump, and nothing changed but their mindset. An how they approach the system.

But once they add in this, its less of a journey and a walk to the corner store and back. Yes changing out items on the fly is easier. But that timesink investment is now gone, there's nothing to figure out. Once you're done in an hour, what's left?

I don't think the current system should be a thing at all, and it is a baffling that a modern MMO like FFXIV is supposed to be is inferior to like a game like Star Wars Galaxies where you can literally put anything anywhere any height any angle, what you are worried about is going out of business when now everyone can just place items the way they want, without having to use glitches.

As for limitations even the glitch system we use now has extreme amounts of limits you can't even deal with or fix to have certain items the way you want them as in like no never.

[mixu]

Glitching the way it is is just frustrating and time consuming af. It’s not more creative in the slightest. One may feel accomplished in their glitchcraft when they get it down, which sure, that’s fine, but it’s certainly not preferable or appealing for 99% of players. Instead of actually being able to focus on the creative expression of the actual design, which can expand exponentially one things can be more easily placed, you tediously have to wrestle with simply raising a single item, often for hours. Yes, I wanted to learn how to glitch vanilla initially of course, and did so, but not in a million years would I think it ideal or want them not to finally add a basic tool.

Being able to change furniture size is what I really hope for some day though lol

[Solowing]

Glitching the way it is is just frustrating and time consuming af. It’s not more creative in the slightest. One may feel accomplished in their glitchcraft when they get it down, which sure, that’s fine, but it’s certainly not preferable or appealing for 99% of players. Instead of actually being able to focus on the creative expression of the actual design, which can expand exponentially one things can be more easily placed, you tediously have to wrestle with simply raising a single item, often for hours. Yes, I wanted to learn how to glitch vanilla initially of course, and did so, but not in a million years would I think it ideal or want them not to finally add a basic tool.

Being able to change furniture size is what I really hope for some day though lol

It is more creative because you are FORCED into lateral thinking. It gives chances for emergent design by telling you no occassionally. And either makes you figure it out. Or create something else.

But by doing this you now devalues everyone work who worked the system. We arnt raising the ceiling. Were just upping the floor to the ceiling and expecting variety and uniqueness fr0m a system that just homogenized it. In doing so nobody is going to care about anyone's creations because all their creations are creations lacking any friction.

Hows Everest impressive when the lines to climb it look like this? The achievement is commodified. So what's the achievement in it? If I took a helicopter to the summit, it defeats the journey but if the end result is all that matters? But who do you respect more? Now imagine everyone has an ability to take a flight to the summit. But some took the hard way up. Wouldnt you agree if they say the achievement is devalued? For it to have value it has to have scarcity.

IF everything is accessible, then nothing carries weight. Ifs none of its accessible its stifling. Its a tough middle ground to find.

[Solowing]

I don't think the current system should be a thing at all, and it is a baffling that a modern MMO like FFXIV is supposed to be is inferior to like a game like Star Wars Galaxies where you can literally put anything anywhere any height any angle, what you are worried about is going out of business when now everyone can just place items the way they want, without having to use glitches.

As for limitations even the glitch system we use now has extreme amounts of limits you can't even deal with or fix to have certain items the way you want them as in like no never.

Those limits give my creation flavor because of the lateral thinking needed it to impose my will on it.

If you get hit with something that isn't giving what you want? You gonna cry and stomp until you get it? Life tosseed me an issue of my car not starting. Either I can pay someone to fix it. Or I can roll up my sleeves and problem solve my way to a solution. I chose to roll up my sleeves because the friction is a learning moment. I felt a moment of pride with one of the Car guy big wigs at my place of work asked me about my car, and I told them the struggles of my issues and the attempts at troubleshooting. He respects not the end result because its still not turning on. But the attempt in trying to do something that isn't easy. Because they work on their own cars themselves they understand and respect the struggle, and a struggle that hasn't resolved yet, is more respectful then a result without struggle.

I don't mind if the floor is raised. But I want the ceiling raised as well. Rather then only the floor raised and ceiling left where it is. But the problem is if every ceiling needs to be as accessible as the floor. What limits can you push?

[Themarvin]

Those limits give my creation flavor because of the lateral thinking needed it to impose my will on it.

If you get hit with something that isn't giving what you want? You gonna cry and stomp until you get it? Life tosseed me an issue of my car not starting. Either I can pay someone to fix it. Or I can roll up my sleeves and problem solve my way to a solution. I chose to roll up my sleeves because the friction is a learning moment. I felt a moment of pride with one of the Car guy big wigs at my place of work asked me about my car, and I told them the struggles of my issues and the attempts at troubleshooting. He respects not the end result because its still not turning on. But the attempt in trying to do something that isn't easy. Because they work on their own cars themselves they understand and respect the struggle, and a struggle that hasn't resolved yet, is more respectful then a result without struggle.

I don't mind if the floor is raised. But I want the ceiling raised as well. Rather then only the floor raised and ceiling left where it is. But the problem is if every ceiling needs to be as accessible as the floor. What limits can you push?

My argument still stand, it would be preferred if I could use that creativity to actually build things and not having to rely on any glitches AT ALL.

That you get a kick out of it fine, but having to lift a bunch of things on a partition and the likes is absolutely retarded and hindering progress for the extreme majority of people, that does not mean you can not continue using the glitches when we get the fixes that should had been there in the very first place when housing and apartments became a thing, it is as simple as that.

[Solowing]

My argument still stand, it would be preferred if I could use that creativity to actually build things and not having to rely on any glitches AT ALL.

That you get a kick out of it fine, but having to lift a bunch of things on a partition and the likes is absolutely retarded and hindering progress for the extreme majority of people, that does not mean you can not continue using the glitches when we get the fixes that should had been there in the very first place when housing and apartments became a thing, it is as simple as that.

I find these back and forths fun. We are arguing a philosophy, not just a video game anymore.

For you you just want to create in a game that you pay for.

Me? Oh theres a glitch that allowes me to take a creative aspect of a game to limits it never naturally allows me to? That's where creativity blooms for me. Not in the limits but the ability to take the limits and toss them in the trash by my own merit.

But in asking for the floor to be raised, but not the ceiling, nobody can stand out anymore. And if another glitch is discovered those who don't want to do it will again ask for it to be standardized. There can be no innovation because innovation is merely a glitch waiting to be patched out

"One race had discarded all things that gave rise to sorrow, hoping to have only joy. They found joy lost its savor in the absence of sorrow, and lost their will to live"