Frontline - Lets Address The Elephant In The Room

[Scintilla]

hmm, i queue solo too and i refuse to be turned into splatter on pavement just because no one knows when to disengage.
monkeys together strong but if its clear that my team is just spoonfeeding bh to enemy... i dunno, i think i choose to read the situation with nuance, thats all im saying.

The problem is that it isn't a black-and-white situation and far too many take the overly-hesitant, run-away approach that only helps premade teams.

How many teams will take initiative and attempt to flank an aggressive enemy while they're launching an attack on the 3rd alliance? Not many. The usual response amongst casual teams is to stay on their safe side of the map, sit on their safe nodes, and watch the premade burst the other alliance thinking 'lucky that's not us'. Some would argue that that passive approach is a good choice to avoid 'being turned into splatter on a pavement'. In reality, they're just allowing the spoonfeeding of BH to the enemy. There is no avoiding it - they will come for you eventually, only this time they'll be buffed after wiping the other alliance.

How many teams will actually support their tanks who have just jumped in to voluntarily tank the damage in the hope that their team backs them up and follows up with a burst? Again, not many. Generally, teams will watch, take a working week to decide whether or not they want to support, before deciding they'd rather not take the risk and so run away. This leaves the tank to fend for themselves.
It's partially the reason why the levels of CC experienced by melees/tanks is sky-high. I would be hesitant to say 'reduce the level of CCs' because an unchecked tank/melee would have quite an advantage. However, tanks/melees need the support of their alliance - if the ranged/casters burst with their tanks/melee, the enemy will be forced to prioritise their own survival and healing, leaving them less time to be throwing CCs. As it is, the PvP-avoidance and hesitation of many casual players leaves tanks/melees with minimal backup, giving the enemy the opportunity to throw every CC they have at them.

Now, I'm not saying to go totally reckless. There are some approaches which are usually just feeding (cliff-jumping in Shatter, blind focus on one enemy/objective leaving the team open to attack from the other enemy alliance etc.) but, unfortunately, these tend to be the things that the 'play safe' casuals fall for most, while an aggressive coordinated push is considered too 'high risk' for them to want to try.

[IvoryBadge]

I'm not sure I can agree though. There's always a higher winning chance for the team that has tanks than a team that has pure dps. Tanks alone are what makes frontlines a worse experience. The rampant ability is insanely broken. On some maps, certain classes such as GNB can amass dps to 3 million and be top of everyone's team. It's just that bad. No amount of anti heals and CC can stop this.

A single GNB can activate heart, nebula, rampant, LB and it will have around 90%+ damage reduction which means even if entire enemy team focuses you, you won't die at all for the next 10-15 seconds + do massive damage due to nebula and LB / stun. So how is that fair I ask you? You enter in entire enemy team and just yolo and woops they are all dead! Congratulations, you won the game. I had plenty of games where I had to pick GNB so I could finally win frontlines you know because this class is just tad good.

Whenever there is a team of 2-5 GNB + premades ,you know you will not win that one. There's absolutely zero chance for it. Frontlines are a mess and I agree with that, but saying that there's too much antiheal is a straight up lie. Healers alone keep tanks alive by a large margin which creates yet even more damage.

I'd say that antiheal actually got nerfed pretty hard by removing Scholar ability to reduce healing and many others.

Yes there are too much Antiheal, are we playing the same roles?
Tanks mean nothing when the team isnt pushing with them, when you as tank go in to burst or just push, really, the enemy which are mostly ranged just spreads out while melting you down out of your MP/CCs/debuffs etc.. now i turn the question back how is that fair? Lets not talk about melee (aside from VPR)

GNB is the braindead Tank since 7.1 came out and if 5-10 people cannot take GNB down by this point im sorry but with all due respect that is a massive skill issue on the group. Not only one can knock/blota/stun GNB out of their LB, but also people don’t press buttons, drain the GNB out right and CC them after purify duration is done, I’ve seen a lot of people just stand there eating all stacks and do nothing about it. GNB strength is other people’s Cluelessness

Now i do agree that Rampart is a bit overkill but so as antiheals, Bravery and Smite.

I also agree GNB is just OP at this point for no good reason, the fact that Nebula counters higher potency than the amount dealt to the guarded GNB is laughable.

[IvoryBadge]

we should first address the dinosaur in the room: premades/achievement hunters spamming dnc+pld+drk+X, turning FL into a brainless copy-paste game

but i guess the 6 mchs and brds in the lobby are what make FL so tiring according to pvpforum

I’m not sure what you’re talking about but DRK meta is no longer the major threat, at least in Light DC. If anything they’re the ones who get cooked the most especially if they pop off early game, 1v2 ganks at spawn are common now.

granted that is if they’re playing in the “Regulars” lobby, and not dodging queue and stomping the “Rouletters” lobby.

Let alone that most regulars avoid Worqor like its the devil. Onsal, Shatter and Seal Rock are the maps where sweatlords are at and trust me DRK premades arent having their best times

[Lacksz]

I’m not sure what you’re talking about but DRK meta is no longer the major threat, at least in Light DC. If anything they’re the ones who get cooked the most especially if they pop off early game, 1v2 ganks at spawn are common now.

granted that is if they’re playing in the “Regulars” lobby, and not dodging queue and stomping the “Rouletters” lobby.

Let alone that most regulars avoid Worqor like its the devil. Onsal, Shatter and Seal Rock are the maps where sweatlords are at and trust me DRK premades arent having their best times

What I'm talking about is that there is no "ranged" meta in current 7.4 Frontline as a melee main, not even on EU, and anti-heal is not as problematic in FL, sure they could adjust it? They need to adjust many things.

What is making FL bad right now is Square Enix's neglect of the mode, allowing certain PvP actions that were designed for Crystal Conflict to still function in FL without any adjustments, like PLD Guardian/Cover, which killed EW PvP for +6 months.
The result? PLD Cover + DNC LB spam over and over again with little counterplay, making FL matches almost identical, boring, and bad.
Another instance of neglect from whoever balances PvP is Bravery (25% damage reduction) on a VPR with 60% damage reduction, not ranged players that I delete with SAM Namikiri combo, MNK Meteo, or RPR Death Warrant combo, and it's easier now than ever with Smite.

I don't care if people split lobbies into 2 categories "Regulars" and "roultetters" FL is for everyone and I treat FL as is, every lobby is a Frontline lobby.
I don't care if "regulars" or "sweatlords" avoid X map or Y lobby, its the same disneyland I witness in all maps, all lobbies, all hours (Light & Chaos).

And with the lack of matchmaking in FL, groups abusing certain unbalanced abilities turn FL into a circus.

I'm not asking to ban groups, but to fix the core problems that enable these kinds of messes (that are not caused by ranged players or anti-heal abilities).

[Scintilla]

What I'm talking about is that there is no "ranged" meta in current 7.4 Frontline as a melee main, not even on EU, and anti-heal is not as problematic in FL, sure they could adjust it? They need to adjust many things.

There's some things I kind of agree with and some things I don't. I'll need to split it to two posts or it's too long

This ranged vs melee discussion:
Let's be honest, with the exception of GNB and perhaps VPR where you can be abandoned by your team repeatedly (because, let's face it, you will be) and still get a decent score, ranged largely wins. You can practically fall asleep playing most ranged/caster classes, only vaguely paying attention to what you're doing, and still top the scoreboards. You don't even have to know how to play them well to get a decent score. The only exception to that is perhaps PCT, purely because of the pre-emptive setup needed to play it. Melee, less so. That's not to say that they deal no damage or are particularly difficult, more that it's not really a 'wake me up when it's over' role, unless you plan on not actually playing it as melee. Which leads to the next point: CC

Part of the reason tank/melee isn't such a fall-asleep class is because of the heavy focus you get. Upon getting within range you are instantly bombarded with endless spams of CC, making it almost impossible to do anything at times. Purify will help initially, but the buff itself only lasts for 2-sec while the CD is 4-sec, leaving you totally unprotected 50% of the time. With the heavy focus you can get in the role, that one stun/silence can often mean death. Multiple issues cause it:

1. The Purify setup

2. Job proportions - there's usually far more casters/ranged within alliances (in EU, at least), than there are tanks/melee. Each caster/ranged (with the exception of DNC which has that deadly LB instead), has at least 2 CCs so, that's a lot of CC waiting for you, but not many melees/tanks to share it. Then discount the tanks/melees who are not really playing as true melee, either because the class allows it (RPR, NIN etc.), or because they aren't confident to play melee-range. That leaves you even fewer targets to eat all of that CC. Your tiny little Purify is going to do very little to help you! This only encourages and rewards premade play even further - solo, you're chances of dying are higher, whereas, as a premade you know you've got your party's support (Bravery, PLD cover etc.)

3. Player approach - As I mentioned in a previous post, most casual players are far too cautious and slow to back their tanks/melees up. If you have a good team who follows up their tanks/melees with a damage burst, the enemy will be too busy healing/shielding/running to be throwing CCs and damage. In solo/casual teams, this doesn't happen, so the tanks/melees are focused down by CCs and heavy damage focus while their ranged/casters are still deciding whether to push or run (usually choosing to run).

[Scintilla]

What is making FL bad right now is Square Enix's neglect of the mode, allowing certain PvP actions that were designed for Crystal Conflict to still function in FL without any adjustments, like PLD Guardian/Cover, which killed EW PvP for +6 months. The result? PLD Cover + DNC LB spam over and over again with little counterplay, making FL matches almost identical, boring, and bad. Another instance of neglect from whoever balances PvP is Bravery (25% damage reduction) on a VPR with 60% damage reduction, not ranged players that I delete with SAM Namikiri combo, MNK Meteo, or RPR Death Warrant combo, and it's easier now than ever with Smite.

The first part, I agree with. PvP as a whole is rather pushed to the side because of the low interest from much of the playerbase. And what little PvP attention there is, 90% of it goes to Crystalline Conflict, leaving FL is very neglected.

Yes, the skills are more suited to CC games, making some of them particularly deadly in FL. That said, I won't go into pointing fingers at specific skill combos/LBs because pretty much every class has it's 'nuisance ability'. What I will mention though, is that each of those examples you gave involved combining skills from both a ranged and a melee class. It's not purely a ranged issue or purely a melee issue. To overlook the ranged contribution in both of those scenarios would be very one-sided.

There can be some deadly combinations and getting past them can be tricky (some harder than others, particularly when it comes to PLD cover). However, there are usually ways around it, both to protect/shield your team and delay/stop the enemy. The problem comes that very few players actually take steps to put such counters into practice (e.g. MNK/RPR LBing the VPR that is being buffed with Bravery and then focusing them down). In the case of DRK/DNC/GNB premades, half of the alliance don't even have enough awareness of their surroundings to notice a BH5 alliance charging towards them, even with numerous warning calls, markers, and counters to prevent it.

There isn't a one-solution-fits-all. Yes, there could maybe be some skill adjustments here and there, but the meta and combinations will just change and adapt and the complaints will just continue. The problem, unfortunately, isn't one that I can see ever being fixed

[Lacksz]

There's some things I kind of agree with and some things I don't. I'll need to split it to two posts or it's too long

.

1. No one said this is a melee vs ranged discussion. It's about some unbalanced PvP actions that have almost 0 counterplay.

2. It's normal for ranged jobs to be picked more, they are easy, and that's fine.

3. Right now, a melee can dive in and do a breakdance vs 20 enemies (and their team gains momentum while doing so, they're winning even if they die) and won't get properly punished if that melee is paired with Bravery + PLD Cover

3.1. The problem here ^ isn't the melee, ranged, or PLD, its the fact that Cover exists + Bravery being an ability that can be cast on allies

3.2. Balance here should be to either disable Cover in FL (or adjust how it behaves) and make Bravery personal only, easy right? we had to wait almost a year last time for a simple adjustment to cover back in EW and I don't know how long this will take.

4. All 3 teams usually have their share of semi-aware players, and thats fine. The purpose of FL is for us to work together, regardless of skill, to win, but this is irrelevant to PvP balance.

[Lacksz]

The first part, I agree with. PvP as a whole is rather pushed to the side because of the low interest from much of the playerbase. And what little PvP attention there is, 90% of it goes to Crystalline Conflict, leaving FL is very neglected.

Yes, the skills are more suited to CC games, making some of them particularly deadly in FL. That said, I won't go into pointing fingers at specific skill combos/LBs because pretty much every class has it's 'nuisance ability'. What I will mention though, is that each of those examples you gave involved combining skills from both a ranged and a melee class. It's not purely a ranged issue or purely a melee issue. To overlook the ranged contribution in both of those scenarios would be very one-sided.

There can be some deadly combinations and getting past them can be tricky (some harder than others, particularly when it comes to PLD cover). However, there are usually ways around it, both to protect/shield your team and delay/stop the enemy. The problem comes that very few players actually take steps to put such counters into practice (e.g. MNK/RPR LBing the VPR that is being buffed with Bravery and then focusing them down). In the case of DRK/DNC/GNB premades, half of the alliance don't even have enough awareness of their surroundings to notice a BH5 alliance charging towards them, even with numerous warning calls, markers, and counters to prevent it.

There isn't a one-solution-fits-all. Yes, there could maybe be some skill adjustments here and there, but the meta and combinations will just change and adapt and the complaints will just continue. The problem, unfortunately, isn't one that I can see ever being fixed

Certain comps like DNC + PLD + DRK have no real counter. I've tried. Even if I kill/interrupt the DNC or PLD with SAM LB, MNK LB, RPR LB, or even use Full Swing to break PLD Guard while covering the DNC, the damage is already done, and they've already gained momentum for the entire match. That snowball can't be reversed with so-called "counterplay" like RPR LB.
You're right that metas will always exist, but the current one has too little counterplay. I'd be fine with a meta if there were actual answers to it, right now, we cringe on.

Cheers

[Scintilla]

1. No one said this is a melee vs ranged discussion. It's about some unbalanced PvP actions that have almost 0 counterplay.

Then I'm sorry for the misunderstanding but, considering some of the posts here are describing tanks as being a problem, while others are talking of ranged CC being an issue (to the point where you use the phrase 'ranged meta' (in the context of saying there isn't one), there does seem to somewhat a ranged vs melee side to the conversation.

3. Right now, a melee can dive in and do a breakdance vs 20 enemies (and their team gains momentum while doing so, they're winning even if they die) and won't get properly punished if that melee is paired with Bravery + PLD Cover

Technically, any class can throw themselves into 20-enemies, it doesn't mean they live any longer than a second. With melee it's just the same. The addition of Bloodbath/Rampart has helped melees with surviving such jumps a little longer, but that's only if they manage to survive the endless CC they get. Sometimes it works, a lot of the time (for a solo player in an average casual team) it doesn't. If you play melee as it sounds like you do (based upon your list of classes you've tried), you'll know what I and the OP mean; Jump in, stun, 2 knockbacks throwing you deep into the enemy team, by now your Purify will be off CD but getting out from so deep into the enemy group will be a challenge. Before you know it you're stuck in another stun lock. Meanwhile your team (who were right behind you and charging when you jumped), decided to run instead of push and retreated back to base. Getting a solo DNC LB or RPR LB specially for you is just the icing on the cake! It's just a random example, but times this by however many times you jump. But, as I said, I would be hesitant to say reduce the level of CC because an unchecked tank/melee would have an advantage.

The problem here ^ isn't the melee, ranged, or PLD, its the fact that Cover exists + Bravery being an ability that can be cast on allies

I can't say that I can think of a particular reason to reject such an idea, limiting Bravery to the caster especially. Cover seems a bit broken in both CC and FL tbf, though I can't see SE just removing it. What other adjustment could be made (except maybe increasing the CD drastically to stop it being used so much), I'm not sure. I can't say that PLD is a class that I play super often, though, so others who do know it better than me may think differently.

[Scintilla]

Certain comps like DNC + PLD + DRK have no real counter. I've tried.

I agree that PLD cover blocks a lot of the typical counters and can make things a bit more of a headache.
To say that it's totally undefeatable, though, wouldn't be completely correct, but it does rely more heavily on having a team who can spot the incoming danger quickly enough to split and who takes the initiative to flank when the DRK-PLD-DNC led alliance are preoccupied elsewhere. Admittedly, outside of regular-heavy games, such teams are few and far between.
Technically, the PLD can only cover one - the DRK or DNC, leaving the other open to regular counters. If you counter the DRK, you're giving your team a better chance to split and run out of DNC range. If it's the DNC, you're giving them the chance to Guard and run.
Alternatively, you could try to jump behind the premade and RPR LB the supporting alliance, giving the premade less backup support but probably not the best option if the 4 premade members are already BH5 and wiping teams solo. More a bonus if there's already someone out to try to target the non-covered DRK/DNC.
Then there's the shielding and defensive abilities that could be used to support teams in their escape.
But, again, all of this relies on having a good team who are aware of their surroundings, who know their role well, and who are familiar with FL. In casual teams, that's sadly not the case:
Half will be blind focusing the nearest objective and will be completely oblivious to the incoming danger. Some will run, but with no thought to Sprint, Guard, or Purify to avoid the DRK voke. Some will be at the other end of the map totally split from the team doing who knows what. And a few will be AFK, dancing in respawn.

As the OP mentioned: you notice these tactics less in games full of regulars because they get away with it far less. But, the playstyle of many casuals just helps them all the more.
Making changes to certain skills (such as cover) may help a little, but it won't fix it.

I only say this because of the number of times I've seen a solo player try their hardest to command and support EU FLs, only to be met with toxicity ("Not this again", "shut up", "it's only PvP, who cares?", "Not that deep, just get exp and get out" etc.). Yet those very same players who turn against the solo commander trying to help them, will openly complain about premades 'ruining games'.
It's one reason I won't attempt to command, but admire anyone willing to give it a go. The community doesn't help itself.