Should there be Limited Classes?

[ZeroZi]

I would like to open a discussion about the concept of Limited Classes. having a class soon to be two classes with the inclusion of Beast Master that can't be used in standard content is disappointing. So I want to start a discussion should Blue Mage and the soon to be released Beast Master should they still be Limited Job Classes?

In my opinion I don't think they should be they should be given the same status as regular classes even if leveling them up or unlocking abilities and spells are unique.

[Carighan]

Nope. Hard nope in fact. They do not at all work like "normal" classes, and hence cannot even be slotted into slots in groups. Nevermind how their balance neither works nor is intended to work like everybody else, and hence would inherently break any semblance of class balance.

The deal is basically that for classes such as Blue Mage of Beastmaster, the choice is between:

* Not have the class at all.
* Only have it in the open world and in pre-made groups.

[ZeroZi]

I see could you enlighten me what does Blue Mage have that would make it too powerful or hard to balance? I just want to understand because I don't like the idea of getting future classes that I can't enjoy unless I play it in specific content.

[Azurarok]

there's a thread on the subject in the General Discussion board.


I'd love to use it in current content, but as I've answered there it's very likely it'll have a much more limited kit, ironically. Many Blue spells have really unique effects that can either be broken (Ultravibration, Perpetual Ray, Level 5 Death, etc) or disruptive for your party (any knockback/pull-in spell, any freezing spell, self-destruct/final sting, etc). They can disable part of the kit so you can only use "legal" spells, but how much of what makes BLU interesting would remain at that point? Or are you just wanting it for the aesthetic?

Then there's the whole cross-role part, the job can be a dps, healer, or tank. Would it be locked to dps then, further limiting its kit, or would it be allowed to actually be other roles? In the latter case why should other jobs be limited to their own role?

[ZeroZi]

I see your point but there are some things that are easy to balance such a Level 5 death just make bosses immune to death or instant kill effects they do it all the time in all the other Final Fnatasy Games but for other stuff like the knockback and pull spells can be abused or used to troll, I do have a solution for that in the cause of abusing things like sticky tongue just give the spell grant high enmity so the boss focuses who uses the spell not a perfect fix but its an idea i think could work. But overall I think its valid but im just disappointed because not the beast master is going to get the same treatment and I really like the idea of the class.

[Reginald_Cain]

Yes there should be and they should get more development than they currently do. Regular jobs are boring homogeneous slop that don't keep my interest the way blue does. Limited jobs are the only jobs that have any customization anymore and they should be used to give life to the open world beyond collection of spells and Animals. Im so tired of people calling Limited jobs wasted resources when they have potential to be the most engaging side content if they got regular updates and MORE resources.

[ZeroZi]

I see im worried about the beast master release i really like beast master.

[Carighan]

I see could you enlighten me what does Blue Mage have that would make it too powerful or hard to balance? I just want to understand because I don't like the idea of getting future classes that I can't enjoy unless I play it in specific content.

Just the simple ones:

• Can play as a tank, can also heal significantly, while also having very strong damage options -> You cannot determine which role they would be for DF purposes.
• Some damage options rely on binary effects bosses would have to be immune to. Are they? BLU is now underpowered (or at least lame to play) by-design. Are they not? BLU is now overpowered by-design.
• How do you handle BLUs who don't have all their skills yet? Do you intentionally gimp the groups they get matched into? Or do you prevent BLUs without all skills from queueing at all?
• An important aside: The game has more than enough classes already. In fact, it quite obviously has too many. Adding more into the pool is the worst they could do, they need to stop releasing classes and start releasing gameplay mechanics for the existing classes urgently. So adding BLU to the "main pool" of classes makes an existing wound bleed even more profusely, for no gain and just a ton of headaches like I said. They're a balancing-nightmare with no upside as assuming you can balance them, the current combat design would mean they're forced into the same 4-5 GCDs + 5-10 oGCDs static rotation with no reactive elements as every other damage class, as that what balance originates from in the current state of combat design.

That being said I see no reason not to freely allow them in all content assuming that:

• Only when manually grouping up.
• 1+ limited class in the group means the combats give no loot and no achievements (and hence no mounts or titles etc).

You can still bring them for the lulz and ezpz kill ultimates and stuff, but it's just for the fun, not for any material reward as the balance was never meant to include these classes.

And make no mistake, a better underlying combat design and a far more flexible encounter design could in theory support classes as "weird" as BLU or BSM as full classes. Sure. But FFXIV isn't that game, and assuming they'd want to change that, there'd be multiple expansions worth of class reworks, most from the very ground up (as in, delete absolutely all current skills and traits and start over), to do before getting to the limited jobs. That's assuming all combat classes would even survive such a rework, so we'd probably be more looking at an FF17 here, not a change to FF14.

I'd love a full combat rework, but I am also acutely aware that most players wouldn't accept it, partially because naturally no class would still feel like the class you played before afterwards. So chance are slim~none.

[ZeroZi]

Just the simple ones:

• Can play as a tank, can also heal significantly, while also having very strong damage options -> You cannot determine which role they would be for DF purposes.
• Some damage options rely on binary effects bosses would have to be immune to. Are they? BLU is now underpowered (or at least lame to play) by-design. Are they not? BLU is now overpowered by-design.
• How do you handle BLUs who don't have all their skills yet? Do you intentionally gimp the groups they get matched into? Or do you prevent BLUs without all skills from queueing at all?
• An important aside: The game has more than enough classes already. In fact, it quite obviously has too many. Adding more into the pool is the worst they could do, they need to stop releasing classes and start releasing gameplay mechanics for the existing classes urgently. So adding BLU to the "main pool" of classes makes an existing wound bleed even more profusely, for no gain and just a ton of headaches like I said. They're a balancing-nightmare with no upside as assuming you can balance them, the current combat design would mean they're forced into the same 4-5 GCDs + 5-10 oGCDs static rotation with no reactive elements as every other damage class, as that what balance originates from in the current state of combat design.

That being said I see no reason not to freely allow them in all content assuming that:

• Only when manually grouping up.
• 1+ limited class in the group means the combats give no loot and no achievements (and hence no mounts or titles etc).

You can still bring them for the lulz and ezpz kill ultimates and stuff, but it's just for the fun, not for any material reward as the balance was never meant to include these classes.

And make no mistake, a better underlying combat design and a far more flexible encounter design could in theory support classes as "weird" as BLU or BSM as full classes. Sure. But FFXIV isn't that game, and assuming they'd want to change that, there'd be multiple expansions worth of class reworks, most from the very ground up (as in, delete absolutely all current skills and traits and start over), to do before getting to the limited jobs. That's assuming all combat classes would even survive such a rework, so we'd probably be more looking at an FF17 here, not a change to FF14.

I'd love a full combat rework, but I am also acutely aware that most players wouldn't accept it, partially because naturally no class would still feel like the class you played before afterwards. So chance are slim~none.

Alright thanks for the explanation sorry if I wasted your time its just a bit frustrating and worried about how BSM will turn out.