Idea for TBN

[Sazuzaki]

Eh she deals enough autoattack damage, just let her hit you twice.

Although I don't feel comfortable with tools such as TBN in a damage-centric tank-design game like FFXIV, anyways. I wish there was another defensive use locked behind it instead.

I don't believe Vamp auto attacks during Coffinkiller, which is why it's kind-of doodoo to try to proc it anywhere there. I haven't recleared it in a while though so I could be missing something

I wouldn't mind if TBN became purely defensive, but they would have to change the MP economy elsewhere in the job so that management identity doesn't goto waste. This is why I agree with HW DRK should've been the foundation to 5.0 DRK. Just find a way to smoothe out and streamline the issues that came with its initial release.

That being said, I wanted to thank everyone for engaging in this topic. I appreciate hearing everyone's perspectives.

[Zarkovitch]

Just give me 3 more secs on my tbn and I tbn my co tank and gain my edge. Ezpz

[Mikey_R]

Yeah TBN not breaking is the punishment, and to be honest, I wouldn't care that much if TBN stayed the same. My suggestion is here mainly for thinking of ways to reduce TBNs jank (like it punishing you for gearing up, the WHM stunlock, many that are already common knowledge) and adding a way XIV's DRK could have HP sac, but HP sac does come with the con of that being someone else's problem rather than yours. However, I do wish people were more open-minded to the idea of HP sac because there are certainly ways to include such a feature without it being obnoxious.

I think this is going to be a agree to disagree situation, however:

-TBN not breaking is the punishment, adding blood price negates that punishment (as you will always use it, even if it is at 1 second left of TBN). This essentially makes the skill use 3000 MP for a shield, if it doesn't break, you lose 10% HP, as opposed to lose an edge/flood. The punishment is far less so you don't need to plan the TBN at all as you know you can pop it at any time.
-As for WHM in trash packs, why are you using TBN when the WHM has started to use Holy? 99% of WHMs are going to use Holy at the start of a trash pull, so it is then the skill of the DRK to not use TBN in that window.

(This applies to Carighan as well) The devs didn't want DRK to sacrifice HP, this is a consistent thing since DRK's release in HW, so, instead, they made them sacrifice MP, with the DRK's MP economy being entirely managed by the DRK themselves and that was their compromise.

I have made many posts in the past about HP sac and as a short summary, if the DRK could recover HP in some way, it would either be too much healing or too little, too much invalidates the healer, too little gives healers extra to heal. There is also the frequency at which you can sacrifice HP as well as how much you sacrifice. Too often, you run the risk of not having enough HP to survive mechanics (at which point it is the healer's fault for not healing enough) or too little and it is inconsequential that you don't have to work around it at all. There is also gear differences as well as a slew of other factors. This might again be an agree to disagree situation, but that is a short summary of my thoughts.

[Carighan]

If you never lose the edge/flood, wouldn't it be far "cleaner" design to just remove the 10% buff entirely then? It will be impossible to not keep up, so there's no reason to have it any more.

(And honestly I'd go further, remove edge, remove flood, and make TBN take 100% of available mana for a variable amount of shield of variable duration, both based on MP consumed, but that's just me)

And yeah I know, MP is what they use instead, it's just a bit meh because it means they can never square it with previous iterations of Dark Knights. Although to be fair FFXIV is so big and so long-lived, it is the authority on what say, "Dark Knight" as a class means. Not the older games.

[Sazuzaki]

-As for WHM in trash packs, why are you using TBN when the WHM has started to use Holy? 99% of WHMs are going to use Holy at the start of a trash pull, so it is then the skill of the DRK to not use TBN in that window.

I think you missed my point. The point was DRK needlessly clashes with the design of WHM, and I simply am speculating ways that the inherent flaws of TBN could be mitigated without sacrificing identity. But to touch on that, I think it's a little disingenuous to say that 99% of White Mages do that especially in an MMO setting where player habits differ. At level 100, WHM has a 2-min burst that replaces Holy during AOE situations, and it doesn't stun. So that begs the question: is the WHM going to start the pack with their 2 min? Are they going to hold a few GCDs with Holy before they 2 min? What if they wait for me to TBN, and I wait for them to Holy? Are they gonna wait to Holy so they can stun the mob AOE spam? All of this has happened to me, and it happens pretty often. There's no real point in trying to coordinate in the easiest content in the game with every single party I queue into, but it's also annoying when that happens. Also, you didn't really touch on the fact that external mitigation can just straight up prevent TBN from breaking. For example, I TBN some SAM who just got hit by an AOE and a raid wide is about to kill them. The WHM applies Benison, they use third eye, and I use reprisal. BAM TBN doesn't break because we all mit too much to save the guys life... Yet I got punished for literally doing my job. There's factors that are out of my control and I can't exactly predict because again player habits differ.

We definitely both have stubborn views and aren't going to change each other's minds, but I appreciate the discussion nonetheless. Every opinion/idea should be counteracted by an opposite. But I also think we shouldn't be so quick to disagree. I agree with you on the fact that 90% of DRK's would abuse that as a way to make up for their lack of skill on TBN. But I think it may be a little overblown because sacrificing HP as a tank is kind of a big deal, which is why I think it's a fitting punishment for failing to break TBN. Hell if I were designing the skill, that shit would be 25% of your HP rather than just 10% because as I said, that could just be recovered with a CnS/Souleater. It's not like it would be out of character for DRK either because Living Dead exists. With all that being said, it's not like any of this would ever actually be implemented, but it's fun to imagine possibilities.

[Sazuzaki]

If you never lose the edge/flood, wouldn't it be far "cleaner" design to just remove the 10% buff entirely then? It will be impossible to not keep up, so there's no reason to have it any more.

Already kind of like that to be honest. If you lose an edge, all you need to do is just use another edge. All TBN really does if it doesn't break is just make your burst more boring. It's a punishment, but not exactly a fun one. But that's just my view.

Although to be fair FFXIV is so big and so long-lived, it is the authority on what say, "Dark Knight" as a class means. Not the older games.

Ehhh.... I see where you're coming from. If XIV had been more bold with their class design, I would agree. However, they're prioritizing streamlining the jobs over fun atm which is my main issue, but that's also just my opinion. I don't mind DRK being more of a Mystic/Magic Knight in XIV, but they need to make it thematic enough to really push an identity for it. I just don't really see the 'darkness' in how current DRK plays.

[Alahard]

The main consensus I see is

1) Needs to maintain ( or extend) class identity, aka, skill expression
2) What causes a lack of skill expression is out of the players control

As a result, removing the dps aspect of tbn is

So here is my take ->

1) Make TBN refund in the form of blood. Now smart, consistent use of TBN is a dps increase over flood ( instead of neutral). Bad use still negative. ( edit -> i know the extra flood in burst is a dps increase, but it just feels meh. Also fits in better with point 2)

2) Because it's in the form of blood, partial TBN breaks refund partial blood. This way at least being close to breaking is dps neutral.

3) Calculate blood gain based on damage taken if no external defensive's existed. The drk screwing up causing to much self defensive, skill issue. The pf tank/healers being inconsistent and randomly throwing tons of mit on you out of nowhere screwing up your dps, rage issue. ( It is rare, but it has happened to me). EDIT -> I might have not thought this third point through, it does make for a really broken off tank button. hmm...



The only other things I can think require a full rework of the job, or a boring flat mit with no dps ties.

[Rithy255]

Just give me 3 more secs on my tbn and I tbn my co tank and gain my edge. Ezpz

I think this just kinda defeats the purpose of having it have to break in the first place. it would pretty much always break then.

I don't know why but if you suggest TBN should just function like any other tank cooldown people will be angry so they come up with convoluted ways to defend it.

Personally I think a ALL risk no reward cooldown sucks, so TBN should either reward you for good use or just be no risk, either works for me I just dont want a cooldown that's only punishment. As said above me giving 10 blood gauge and a free MP use of flood would be awesome quite honestly, it does need to be a Very small increase in total dps but giving DRK something to optimize would be lovely.

[GraceHorizon]

Personally I think a ALL risk no reward cooldown sucks, so TBN should either reward you for good use or just be no risk, either works for me I just dont want a cooldown that's only punishment. As said above me giving 10 blood gauge and a free MP use of flood would be awesome quite honestly, it does need to be a Very small increase in total dps but giving DRK something to optimize would be lovely.

I like it. If breaking TBN gives a little gauge in addition to the current Dark Arts, it’s a slight situational DPS gain. It’s an avenue for skill expression and it also gives a stronger tie between the offensive and defensive kits of DRK. (That’s something that’s sadly lacking from many jobs: abilities that interact with each other and form a synergistic whole.) If gauge overcapping is problematic you could have it give an instant retributive strike against whatever broke it instead.

[Carighan]

I think this just kinda defeats the purpose of having it have to break in the first place. it would pretty much always break then.

Yeah a better fix would be to give it invuln-like client-priority. Meaning it starts absorbing the moment you press the button, not ~2 seconds later.