On "Hardcore"

[Aceofspades]

I completely agree with OP, I remember this video of a GLA soloing a lvl 99 oger , long before we had jobss that was the closest thing to real skill I ever saw on this game. Key word "skill" . Now tanks are mesured by how much enmity they can hold and not by the only thing that justifies their conception, survivabilty. Anymore a tank relys on the healers to stay alive and they justify this because they can get their speed runs. can you take your best job and solo a lvl 75 mob? NO? but you can run a 17 minute av? Is that what 'lete" is these days? if soo I for one dont want to be in that group. throw away my personal life to satisfy a incorrect definition of what should be skill in this game? no thanks

[KujinRen]

For me, hardcore has to do with your attitude towards a certain objective. If your guild is strict on attendance, demanding of how you spec your character to the tee or have an extremely militant raiding environment where it is always serious business... I consider this "hardcore". In my opinion, you don't have to be "hardcore" to complete the hardest of encounters.

When I played World of Warcraft, my guild was able to clear every Heroic Mode content but we did not consider ourselves "hardcore" because we only raided 2 hours a day for 3 days a week. That's a total of 6 hours per week. Because of this, we considered ourselves casual yet skilled enough to compete with "hardcore" guilds for server first with much less time invested. In fact, we were extremely laid back during raid times and usually joked around in ventrilo during progression.

For the sake of this discussion, I will use World of Warcraft references. Fights such as the "big bosses" like Lady Sinestra, Ragnaros (Cataclysm version), Kil Jaeden, Lich King and Yogg-Saron are examples of hard encounters that require coordination with your raid members. For the less competent players, this can be considered "hardcore" content because they are end-game encounters that would not be easily taken down by less coordinated raids such as PUGs. You don't have to be "hardcore" to tackle these bosses. Just understand the mechanics and do what you're supposed to do and your raid should be successful.

RNG drop rates, farming tokens week after week and and other time sinks are not what I consider "hardcore".

I appreciate having different difficulty modes for raids such as Normal and Hard. Hard mode is meant for players to challenge themselves further and I think casual gamers should not complain about this because that's what normal mode is for. The gear is slightly better from hard mode encounters and the players who complete this content deserve it because, well, they earned it. I don't think everyone should have the same gear because that takes away the sense of accomplishment for those who were able to tackle the harder version of a content.

[Lirion]

For me, hardcore means difficulty of content. Not necessarily a time sink, but boss or raid encounters that are actually challenging. An extremely difficult encounter can be done in 10 minutes if done correctly (for example), however (I hate to say it but) the majority of gamers are average to less-competent when it comes to the difficulty of hard fights, therefore it creates a time sink by smashing their heads against a wall repeatedly.

For the sake of this discussion, I will use World of Warcraft references. Fights such as the "big bosses" like Lady Sinestra, Ragnaros (Cataclysm version), Kil Jaeden, Lich King and Yogg-Saron are examples of hard encounters that require coordination with your raid members. This is the kind of "hardcore" that I enjoy.

RNG drop rates, farming tokens week after week and and other time sinks are not what I consider "hardcore".

Pretty much what this guy said. Doing hamlet 300 times to get seals is not what I would call hardcore, I would call it a lot of time being wasted. Now beating Garuda in 5 min or less or beating Ifrit extreme, that's what I would call hardcore.

So IMO.
Farming same stuff for months = Not hardcore
Beating extremely hard bosses = Hardcore

And I bet a lot of players would be able to beat those bosses but because they don't have the time to do hamlet over and over and over and over again they wont get the relics or whatever item there is. Are they not hardcore now because of it?

[Aceofspades]

hamlet is one thing, I can be wrong , but I think this thread is geared more twards current dungeons and bosses regaurding the timed runs and "speed run" concepts. All it takes to learn how to do a speed run is ALOT of time to spam it till your group memorizes every nook and cranny in that dungeon / boss fight and then it becomes a game of spaming somthing till your dead bored of it

[Zozor]

I completely agree with OP, I remember this video of a GLA soloing a lvl 99 oger , long before we had jobss that was the closest thing to real skill I ever saw on this game. Key word "skill" . Now tanks are mesured by how much enmity they can hold and not by the only thing that justifies their conception, survivabilty. Anymore a tank relys on the healers to stay alive and they justify this because they can get their speed runs. can you take your best job and solo a lvl 75 mob? NO? but you can run a 17 minute av? Is that what 'lete" is these days? if soo I for one dont want to be in that group. throw away my personal life to satisfy a incorrect definition of what should be skill in this game? no thanks

Can I have a link to the video of the gladiator soloing a level 99 ogre long before we had jobs?

Tanks have relied on healers for a long time in many games. If they didn't, why would we need healers?

[Aceofspades]

Can I have a link to the video of the gladiator soloing a level 99 ogre long before we had jobs?

Tanks have relied on healers for a long time in many games. If they didn't, why would we need healers?

im sure its still on youtube, and you are correct, but the party always relied on the tank to mitigate damage, if they didnt why would we need tanks. if it helps its a taru in dated iron plate gear, i think he was a jp player. If I find it, I will post it

[Sasagawa]

Hardcore MMO Playes: are people with lots and lots of time on hand, that are able to commit a vast majority of it, to a video game, hence why they defend and promote content that is catered around low % Drop rates, and content that roadblocks casuals or semi hardcore players from their content.

In short: They are the crowd that want to be the special snowflakes, just because they have no lives. Skill has nothing to do with being hardcore(In their eyes) it is all about the ability to commit your life, for a game.

This is something I feel 90% of the MMO players of today think hardcore is, whereas I have to say I agree more with the OPs original concept of hard mode.

Today MMOs are a mix of both in honesty

There is the large amount of time and effort to get the fantastic gear from semi hardcore events (or medium level difficulty) which are usually luck based drops. Followed by the powerful and hard bosses that can only be beaten through time effort and decent equipment.

SO in conclusion

Hardcore means both time sink and the ability to fell the hardest bosses in the game

[Lirion]

hamlet is one thing, I can be wrong , but I think this thread is geared more twards current dungeons and bosses regaurding the timed runs and "speed run" concepts. All it takes to learn how to do a speed run is ALOT of time to spam it till your group memorizes every nook and cranny in that dungeon / boss fight and then it becomes a game of spaming somthing till your dead bored of it

I'm not disagreeing with the OP, some just seem to think that if you play the game 8 hours a day every day doing the same stuff over and over again to get the drops, you're a hardcore player and I don't agree with that at all. It just means you have a lot of time to waste on a video game. Now of course you can play 8-12 hours a day everyday and still be hardcore but being a hardcore player does not = time spent in a game. And that was that I was answering to.

If we take Vanquish as an example, pretty hard game on hardest difficulty. Say someone beats it in a week playing only 2 hours a day. It's not the time spent on the game, it's the fact that this person beat it on the hardest difficulty that makes him/her a hardcore player.

I would rather take something like beat all the primals on very hard mode and then get the relic over what we have now.

[Aceofspades]

I'm not disagreeing with the OP, some just seem to think that if you play the game 8 hours a day every day doing the same stuff over and over again to get the drops, you're a hardcore player and I don't agree with that at all. It just means you have a lot of time to waste on a video game. Now of course you can play 8-12 hours a day everyday and still be hardcore but being a hardcore player does not = time spent in a game. And that was that I was answering to.

If we take Vanquish as an example, pretty hard game on hardest difficulty. Say someone beats it in a week playing only 2 hours a day. It's not the time spent on the game, it's the fact that this person beat it on the hardest difficulty that makes him/her a hardcore player.

I would rather take something like beat all the primals on very hard mode and then get the relic over what we have now.

we are basicly saying the same thing.

[Amyas]

Anyone can be good, but not everyone can be "elite".

aaand on to the next thing, elite (in this games current state) = having loads of time.

All it takes to beat anything on here is the ability to read, research and listen, the rest is just a time sink.

Now with the Raven, Nevermore... the people who beat that are hardcore, elite superhumans with superior genetics than lowely oldtypes such as myself....