How do we change the short cd mits besides tbn.

[Rithy255]

I disagree with the concept that adding a extra 15% for 4s rewards timing, it more so just means you should always time it inside the 4's or you miss out on half your mitigation. If you want to reward timing you'd just have a short mit on a 4s and all this "timing" would be is >click button when you see tank buster.

I've made my peace on plenty other threads why adding more mitigation and replacing barriers with self healing is just bad, it doesn't make healers more fun though it's a way of requiring them possibly for some ultimate's (ignoring weird 4 paladin scenarios).

I think the goal of changing tank kits should be a overall reduction in kits rather then just changing a core fundamental of tanking which has been self sustain, as yes sustain is a problem but it's by far not the only problem and likely the part in tanks that feels most responsive other then barriers (which again simply replacing all self heals with barriers is a strange work around to make mitigation heavy jobs even more mitigation heavy.

20% passive mitigation should be looked into, short mits effectiveness should be look into, if you want to "time it" im not against them being 4s but one mitigation effect, I think personally 6s is fine, remove stacking mitigation effects on short mits, 40% mits need to be nerfed, Self healing needs to be tuned down but is fine, Divine veil/shake aren't that bad regen needs to go off shake. Healers should gain stronger single target mits to have some more reasonability of the tanks.

Though theirs a billion ways they can take tank short mits, sustain ect. I much rather them just tune things down across the board rather then making paladin some weird block and shield god that has no healing while warrior gets to be a healer tank still :]

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Will fundamentally disagree on that vision on mitigation - I genuinely prefer having the state of short mits being half bonus mit, half base mit serving as a consolation / degradation of potency rather than having a one-and-done mitigation effect; it feels boring to me for a cooldown to only have an on/off state rather than stages to go through.

I played versions of the game where we did have more basic style short mitigations (Shadowbringers) and versions where short mitigations were actually not exactly present on every job, or at least not in the basic ability form (Stormblood). To this day I think the Lv82 tank upgrades are among the coolest additions to the mitigation suite and boiling them down to basic cooldowns again is just boring.

[Rithy255]

Will fundamentally disagree on that vision on mitigation - I genuinely prefer having the state of short mits being half bonus mit, half base mit serving as a consolation / degradation of potency rather than having a one-and-done mitigation effect; it feels boring to me for a cooldown to only have an on/off state rather than stages to go through.

I played versions of the game where we did have more basic style short mitigations (Shadowbringers) and versions where short mitigations were actually not exactly present on every job, or at least not in the basic ability form (Stormblood). To this day I think the Lv82 tank upgrades are among the coolest additions to the mitigation suite and boiling them down to basic cooldowns again is just boring.

What makes the level 82 upgrades to short mitigations arguably interesting is timing but the idea that two stacking effects is needed feels off I don't mind two effects but I rather they do different things at least instead of losing value after 4s then going away after another 4s, I personally like the upgrades for the healing effects and how they have different niches, I think wars is obviously too strong, but having a excog or regen heal on PLD can be nice and has a different feel. Early level sheltron is already 4s and I think the mitigation timing aspect is about as reward has holy sheltrons.

Though I think if you want to make short mits interesting do what you do with dark knights TBN make their usage somehow tied to damage in a way this would actually reward timing in my opinion.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm very opposed at the idea of cranking up damage too much. Perhaps some pieces of content would benefit from it, but first maybe we should remove the Tank Mastery 20% free mitigation that has no purpose whatsoever. However past a point I do not wish to make the game too lopsided between roles, and cranking damage enough so that it actually starts threatening tanks would literally one tap anything else that's not a tank. People will have to realize how tough tanks have become since ShB.

Bloat passive modifiers should go first, yes, but tbf, that's more than just Tank Mastery. Even without it, Tanks have far more passive eHP just by nature of (Magic) Defense and literally just having way more HP.

You could, or... you could do it like attacks like Delta Attack (O4S), Emerald Weapon's non-Ultima raidwide (tanks are having a tank share instead). Or have auto attacks continue happening as raidwide damage is going out.

Removing the 20% tank mastery will lead down to a lot of bottom-up balancing that may need to be done, as it affects a lot more than just raidwides & auto attacks.

Those can happen regardless, and the "bottom-up balancing" is actually minimal given how many things were only ever meant to go on the tank and would remain negligible to tanks even if they were suddenly taking 25% more raid-wide damage (which still just means getting overhealed as they take less damage than everyone else due to higher Defense / Magic Defense). And it should happen regardless, as Tank Mastery never should have happened.

I mean by that logic, tank stance mitigation shouldve never existed in the first place either, yet it did and Tank mastery is just the hold-over from that era and they balanced around it. Ideally they should "not" have added it and instead make what was previous DPS stance levels of mitigation to be the baseline, alas we don't exactly have a time machine.

That's an utterly different logic.

Original tank stance mitigation was an at-cost safety layer one could fall back to, not something we'd have at all times. And what we got wasn't a hold-over from that era in any sense beyond "Greased Lighting" being a holdover from when it existed; they're utterly different and Tank Mastery itself came from a time where we aggressively minimized use of tank stance and could survive every fight without it.

It's bloat and simply forces further role-imbalance. And if the mit were properly punished in compensation via reduced damage it'd still have only reduced player agency compared to leaving the full scope of mitigation and damage, both, under player control. It was never a good idea nor at all a reasonable addition outside of trying to placate via lip-service (bloat tooltip) those simultaneously both panicky and incapable of critical thinking.