FFXI Summoner VS FFXIV Summoner

[Mogmi]

Just like to start of saying Summoner has always been my favorite job in the FF franchise since FF10, With Yuna who is my most favorite FF character of all time. I noticed after unlocking Summoner in FFXI and playing the class, I wish it could be more than it currently is in FFXIV, First thing i noticed in FFXI is there is a connection between you and your Carbuncle pet which is absent in FFXIV, Carbuncle in FFXI speaks to the player through the Summoner quest lines and even promises to help and watch over the player when you first meet, It feels like a bond between you and your pet. I also love how in FFXI having Carbuncle is more similar to owning a Pokemon which is what I want more in a Pet Class like Summoner. In FFXI Carbuncle has its own special abilities with Bloodpact Rage and Bloodpact Ward, Bloodpact Rage being where it can use its own special attacks on enemies (Poison Nails, Meteor , Searing Light , Holy Mist) and Bloodpact Ward having Healing capabilities Healing Ruby which restores a single targets HP, Shining Ruby granting effect of Shell and Protect to the party members, Healing Ruby II which does healing to the whole party. Also worth noting to Carbuncle also has its own auto attack move in FFXI as well to enemies which i heard used to be in FFXIV with a "Sic" Command which was removed. Another thing to note as well is in FFXI Carbuncle has a HP bar which you have to look out for, just like with Pokemon, Usually Healing Ruby II would heal its HP when it got low i noticed and its another thing i like about the class in FFXI. One last thing before i end this post of, I wish FFXIV had more summons like in FFXI as well, FFXI has a lot more summons you can do, and I also wish they could add more Summons to FFXIV as well especially Ramuh, Shiva and Leviathan. To summarize in general I wish in FFXIV they could make it a lot more of a pet class as it is in FFXI, I wish they could rework the whole class and make it something special, Like how its really special to me in FFXI.

[jrollins89]

I've long abandoned hope of FF14 Summoner functioning anything like the pet class we've had from FF10, FF11, FF12, FF13, FF15 (kinda), and FF7Remake+Rebirth. Or even the slow cast, long animation, nuker class we had from FF4 through FF9. FF14 Summoner only plays like FF14 Summoner... and FF16's. Which was released after the fact.

I don't like pointing fingers, but I think that Yoshi P or whoever has been in charge of FF14 Summoner's design since the start just fundamentally does not "get" Summoner and why it is so iconic to the franchise, as evidenced by the fact that for over 10 years we were only able to summon the Egi's as opposed to actual Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan. Or that in DT they doubled down and only gave us a second version of Bahamut that no one asked for as opposed to a plethora of other elemental Summons that we've been begging for.

I just really don't see the job turning around into the Pokemon trainer type gameplay a lot of FF11 veterans wanted unless they get someone on the job design team that is actually a fan of the job/summoning mechanic from past games.

[Connor]

Summoner is absolutely up there as one of the most frequently disrespected jobs in the entire game.

Even when the job first came out and they pulled the ‘oh sorry you literally cannot ever have any other summons besides the main 3 sorry not sorry’ bullshit to cover their asses for never adding more (But it’s ok because Summoner is poison mage now!)

They really came straight out the gate with the disrespect to the job; Lunar Bahamut was just the latests in a long line of metaphorical ‘slaps-in-the-face’ to people who actually like Final Fantasy summoners. Where are the countless iconic final fantasy summons the game has to draw from? Like none of them are even remotely referenced by Summoner lol. You can’t even summon a Chocobo to kick the enemy, how is this an FF Summoner?!

It genuinely feels embarrassing to even play it anymore. Like you’re running around with a ‘I’m a clown’ sign stuck to your back. And from what I understand, despite being so brutally ‘sandpapered’, the job still doesn’t perform well. So they sacrificed the job being enjoyable…and gave effectively nothing in return. A hilariously pointless AoE heal tied to Bahamut for absolutely no reason lol

[Carighan]

Even when the job first came out and they pulled the ‘oh sorry you literally cannot ever have any other summons besides the main 3 sorry not sorry’ bullshit to cover their asses for never adding more (But it’s ok because Summoner is poison mage now!)

Oh yeah that's true. I forgot how lame that was. "Here you're the DoT mage now which has absolutely 0 to do with your job's description or intent, but we can't add more models because this game has to run on an Atari 5200 still and now deal with it!".

At least they later added full-size models in the rework, but again, it makes no sense. Clients are no longer limited by that, this game isn't releasing on the Nintendo Game&Watch, it's time to actually use the hardware! And not for insults to the playerbase such as the Temu Bahamut we got now. That is just genuinely cracking jokes at the playerbase genuinely wanting more summons, instead they add an ultra-lame AI-generated-levels of quality reskin of an existing summon. Siiiigh.

[Chasingstars]

(But it’s ok because Summoner is poison mage now!)l

And then the loss of that causes an uproar because people who liked having the equivalent of an affliction warlock can't play that anymore.

But thats also the thing, the pet aspect of summoner was removed quicker than the dot aspect. As it was in that transition from stormblood to shadowbringers where pets didn't have health bars anymore and became glorified dots. And from shadowbringers to endwalker, the closest thing to a dot left is gardua's slipstream damage puddle, but otherwise there is no dots and the pet is just a vibing carbuncle that shapeshifts.

And now you get two limited jobs to cover what was just normal gameplay before. Blue mage gives you plenty of ways to maximize the benefits of your dots and have multiple dots active. While beastmaster is entirely taking over the pet management part.

[Manamaru]

Summoner is absolutely up there as one of the most frequently disrespected jobs in the entire game.

Even when the job first came out and they pulled the ‘oh sorry you literally cannot ever have any other summons besides the main 3 sorry not sorry’ bullshit to cover their asses for never adding more (But it’s ok because Summoner is poison mage now!)

They really came straight out the gate with the disrespect to the job; Lunar Bahamut was just the latests in a long line of metaphorical ‘slaps-in-the-face’ to people who actually like Final Fantasy summoners. Where are the countless iconic final fantasy summons the game has to draw from? Like none of them are even remotely referenced by Summoner lol. You can’t even summon a Chocobo to kick the enemy, how is this an FF Summoner?!

It genuinely feels embarrassing to even play it anymore. Like you’re running around with a ‘I’m a clown’ sign stuck to your back. And from what I understand, despite being so brutally ‘sandpapered’, the job still doesn’t perform well. So they sacrificed the job being enjoyable…and gave effectively nothing in return. A hilariously pointless AoE heal tied to Bahamut for absolutely no reason lol

Wait until you find out that the summon, attack, and disappearing animations in level 90+ primal summons are recycled animations from Stormblood's Heaven on High deep dungeon via its magicite system. Since in HoH there's also an Odin magicite with animations, Summoner could've gotten a fresh Odin summon by now. But we didn't.

[Carighan]

The loss of pet jobs is such a weird quirk of MMORPG development in general. As MMOs age, they remove or neuter their pets. I mean on some level I get it, as "proper" pet gameplay (you're the controller, you have an extra entity to also move around boss abilities and stuff manually, plus you are responsible for healing it and all, in return it deals your raw damage/healing output for you) is really problematic for boss design that isn't on the level of old EverQuest 1 or so.

Still, even DAoC removed the Necromancer, the one pet class that always worked out by turning the controller into the pet in a way. Just seems to be a universal truth. Pets get trivialized or removed as MMOs age.

[Valmaxian]

I personally don't want SMN to be a pet class, at least not in the WoW sense. I enjoyed the summon systems in FFX and XII, where you had a limited window of time to utilize your summons' abilities. We have something KIND OF like that now, but with an extremely set way of using abilities. My thoughts:

1. Keep the big, dramatic summon ability, make them different (not always big blast), and let us choose when to use it

2a. Summon primal, keep them around. Cast bar changes to primal commands for duration. Primals' abilities/rotations should feel unique and useful in their own ways.
2b. Some primals enter, do their unique ability, then the caster assumes their aspect, like an Evoker. Odin gives us a sick AF sword, Bahamut gives us wings and a breath weapon, etc

3. Give us a "loadout" option like Blue Mage: ex. Perhaps for a particular fight I want access to 6-8 specific primals, then can swap them out between fights, or dungeons; also, give primals health bars and when they die we use an ability to revive/heal them (at the cost of dealing damage) or swap to another primal.

A few things I think should be considered more than they are now:

Having *a* buff and a basic rotation does not mean a job should be weak (I'd prefer a more complex rotation for SMN, just making a general point). Throughout the entire FF series Summoners have eclipsed every other role in terms of raw power. Square, you need to break out of your self-imposed fears of job balance. Why TF is my once epic job among the gimpiest in the game? Behind RED MAGE?

(Spoiler alert) Last I checked, we had Carbuncle, Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Shiva, Bismarck, Ravana, Bahamut, Phoenix, Lakshmi, Asura, Sephirot, Sophia, Zurvan, Ramuh, Leviathan, Alexander, Odin, Shinryu, Necron (did I miss any??) in the game? Why do I have two Bahamuts and Phoenix with the exact same rotation, and only three of the most basic primals at my disposal?

I didn't attend Y'mitra's School for Gifted Youngsters to be treated like an undergraduate second rate Arcanist.

There. I said it.

[Chasingstars]

The loss of pet jobs is such a weird quirk of MMORPG development in general. As MMOs age, they remove or neuter their pets. I mean on some level I get it, as "proper" pet gameplay (you're the controller, you have an extra entity to also move around boss abilities and stuff manually, plus you are responsible for healing it and all, in return it deals your raw damage/healing output for you) is really problematic for boss design that isn't on the level of old EverQuest 1 or so.

Still, even DAoC removed the Necromancer, the one pet class that always worked out by turning the controller into the pet in a way. Just seems to be a universal truth. Pets get trivialized or removed as MMOs age.

Having variety would be the more preferrable option for an mmorpg in my opinion. Cater to different kinds of players, and just accepting that not everyone will play a certain things. And to provide that sort of options, it requires maintenance and fixing stuff. This is also why I am not exactly as enthusiastic about beastmaster coming later this expansion, as its limited and that means I can't just queue in roulette as beastmaster and play with all the other jobs.

[Carighan]

Having variety would be the more preferrable option for an mmorpg in my opinion. Cater to different kinds of players, and just accepting that not everyone will play a certain things. And to provide that sort of options, it requires maintenance and fixing stuff. This is also why I am not exactly as enthusiastic about beastmaster coming later this expansion, as its limited and that means I can't just queue in roulette as beastmaster and play with all the other jobs.

This is how the general design guideline used to be in old MMORPGs. Yes.

But then in particular after WoW released, a shift happened. Players now expected two things to be roughly universally true:

• All classes can solo enemies in the open world, allowing them to level/grind on their own. Previously, this was a specific upside to some classes (e.g. EQ1 Druid and Necromancer, and later also Bard and Enchanter once players figured it out), usually in turn these were designed to be inherently undesirable or sub-par in groups (compare how the Necro rezz or play dead works in EQ1 compared to Cleric rezz or Monk play dead). So you had to pick a class for playing solo, and that was it. You picked that class. You're not stuck with your solo mode.
• All classes roughly balance in group content. You can play whichever one you desire and by and large, groups are fine with that. This was intentionally not designed that way before. We nowadays complain loudly about a job being 6% ahead in damage, or the gap between the top and worst damage dealer being 12% or so. But keep in mind that back in Ye Olden Games, 50%+ (!) of damage difference was entirely normal, and in fact designed that way. Abilities with 12-70 hour cooldowns existed, flat-out one-shotting what passed for boss enemies back in the days. That was designed that way.

The change in these forces a certain homogenization of design as games age. The older the game gets, the more the designers need to dig deeper into the crate of fight mechanics to find new mechanics and new combinations of mechanics to engage players with, and they also need to crank up the "tightness" further, both in timing and in damage. But this naturally also further and further pushes class design together.

Pet classes in particular fall victim first to this, as the entire idea is that a computer-controlled entitity is doing the "raw output", and you have to guide it around all the bad stuff and heal it when it gets hit. But this is ideally difficult for the players themselves already, nevermind when also having to steer a pet via a click-on-ground cursor. Now of course, pet classes could simply be intentionally excluded from group gameplay, right? But as above, players no longer really accept this design. They want to play Summoner in a raid for example, no matter how intentionally the devs want to design the class to only be for open world solo grinding (to compare the EQ1 Necromancer).