Thread: RDM 7.4 changes and job identity

Originally Posted by Striker44

Reductio ad absurdum is used when you know that you have no valid argument to make or can't refute the point you don't like. We're talking one melee combo that can only be used at range once every few minutes, not every melee skill ever.

The point they're making absolutely is a valid argument. We saw how clownshoes it was that we could hit bosses from miles away in EW due to their hitboxes being so much larger than their models implied. Worst offender was P7S, where you had to actively TRY to be out of range as a Melee, because 85% of the arena was 'the boss's targetting circle'. It also has knockon effects on other aspects of game design, such as making certain Actions irrelevant, or disrupting game balance. Melee would not be able to justify their extra potency over PhysRanged or Casters if they had 20y range on attacks. Winged Glide, Thunderclap, Slither, the gapclosers on the Melee, would lose relevance because you don't care about getting back to the boss fast due to the extra range on the attacks. Piercing Talon, Throwing Dagger, etc, all become exceptionally pointless because instead of using these filler actions while disengaged, you'd continue your regular rotation. Some attacks on Melee are circles around the player, such as MNK's Elixir Burst and Rising Phoenix Blitzes, and would need to be reworked to accomodate such a range increase. The challenge of Deep Dungeons as a Melee, where your pull options can be limited (the longest range option to pull a mob as a MNK is sometimes Feint!), would be completely changed.

As for 'one melee combo that can only be used at range once every few minutes'. First of all, 'every few minutes' is doing heavy lifting, it's once per 2min. Secondly, it's the opposite from what you say, isn't it? Manafication is what enables the range, not the Swordplay stacks, so you can, as far as I understand it, do 3 back-to-back Melee combos from long range, leaving just one Melee combo per 2min loop where you're forced into Melee range, before needing to hold off on using them to pool up resources for the next 2min window

So the 'Melee-Caster hybrid, Jack of all Trades' identity of RDM is now reduced to '3 GCDs in Melee range, and the rest you can stand anywhere'.

Originally Posted by Striker44

Though, ironically, the answer to your question is still "correct, it would not affect my individual job fantasy" as long as the game didn't either prevent said skills from being used in melee range or make it practically impossible to do so.

Positionals would make it more annoying (but not impossible) to play the Job optimally at such a range

Thinking about it, one Melee skill COULD be made 20y and it'd be an actual improvement to the game: Holmgang. If you have a target, but aren't within 6y (its current range), the game prioritizes 'you're out of range' over 'oh you want to use your invuln, presumably to survive something fatal'. People get around this sometimes by making a macro that says '/ac "Holmgang" <me>' to force the game to try to selftarget the action. I don't think there's any sane player who would try to argue that 'dying because Holmgang thought you wanted to Bind the enemy, not stay alive', is an important piece of the game, especially after Living Dead got a 'QOL adjustment' (aka it isn't reliant on the Healer anymore), and Superbolide got a 'QOL adjustment' (aka an early Benediction is only half wasted instead of fully wasted now)

Originally Posted by Striker44

Reductio ad absurdum is used when you know that you have no valid argument to make or can't refute the point you don't like. We're talking one melee combo that can only be used at range once every few minutes, not every melee skill ever.

Though, ironically, the answer to your question is still "correct, it would not affect my individual job fantasy" as long as the game didn't either prevent said skills from being used in melee range or make it practically impossible to do so.

For example, there are already people who don't like what they flying has "done" to the game...so they just don't fly. And they're welcome to do that. It only becomes an issue when certain parts of the land become designed to require flying that the concept fails.

Of your 4 melee combos per 2 minutes it’s now 3 that are at range, only one is still in melee range.

And if melee having no melee range restriction wouldn’t affect job identity for you then I don’t even know what you consider job identity

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Sorry, I should have clarified: it isn't just the GCDs, it's the moves. However, if you want to go down the route of the "triple sword" combo, I’d argue you should still be in melee range to fit Corps-a-corps and Displacement into your pot window. But at that point, aren't we just arguing that Red Mage didn't actually change for high-level players?

The reason I asked for a specific fight is that, frankly, there aren't any designed for triple melee in any expansion. I’m genuinely open to an example if you find one, but we shouldn't twist things by saying, "Well, Red Mage used to be a welcome fifth to the melee crowd." When the melee players have to pick a cardinal position, it’s theirs, not a Red Mage’s, because RDM is ranged. Lets' not twist things in this identity post to try and spin it like we've lost something until evidence is provided. It wasn't gutted and people should refrain from dog piling on a job when they have been too busy maining the forums to try it out.

I see what you’re saying in your shift mainly toward talking about identity. Not gonna lie, identity is subjective and hard to discuss functionally, but I appreciate that you aren't equating a range change on the sword combo to the new-gen take of "now it plays like BLM." If you believe Red Mage should "hold its own in melee combat," you’re asking for something entirely new that has never existed in this game. I disagree with this forum 7.4 changes the range of 3 "weaponskills" during burst. Not the identity.

Nobody is asking it to “hold its own in melee” people are saying that square needs to stop designing mechanics then sacrificing identity to make the mechanics fit, this whole change was precipitated on the assumption of the genetic post ShB “a mechanic will be solved with 4 in 4 out”, instead of sacrificing RDM’s identity, just don’t make mechanics require that

Originally Posted by Milkbeard

You are replying, to my reply, to someone else sir. Read both posts if you're gonna do that because I'm not gonna spend time clarifying it for you lol. Also most of the time its not 3 whole combos covered by manaification what fights are you doing? That is for pot window buddy. Don't spin a narrative that isn't true about the rotation to fit your arguement.

I’m replying to the fact that you were asking forsaken if they “believe RDM should hold its own in melee” which is a stance neither forsaken or anyone else has taken, people are saying “stop shaving job mechanics down because your combat design team is so uncreative it forces these problems”

1 melee combo or 3 you only get 4 per 2 minutes, absolute best case scenario you have become 25% less melee, worst 75% likely to fall somewhere on the middle at 50%, that’s a massive reduction In the hybrid design of the job to deal with a problem created by the combat design

A fight shouldn’t have to be “designed” to allow RDM into melee range, fights shouldn’t be so rigid on 4 in 4 out That a good RDM can’t get in and out when they are needed now there is little reason to even try