Thread: RDM 7.4 changes and job identity

Originally Posted by SpookyKobold

So no real argument, just using the slippery slope fallacy to complain about things that don't currently exist. That's very interesting. I wonder when we can argue whats happening in reality instead of things only in your head :\

In street terms this would be called downplaying it. What you're encouraging is just waiting until the last moment, call it idleness or being impassive, not every person has to sit idle or wait for further such things to happen before speaking their mind and come to conclusion especially if such things has already happened enough times to consider thinking.

Not every job has to fit a particular role perfectly or even good enough, that's what makes some people consider playing a different job, i too don't see the point of literally starting to shapeshift every single job to fit every role or every moment of the fight, the balance shouldn't be decided by that singular moment of a singular duty and as others have suggested the duty should instead allow players to express their skills more freely rather than putting every person in the same pot.

Finding new challenges and creating solutions for the cons of my jobs is the reason i started and continued playing this game, being handheld until the very end isn't fun let alone engaging.

Originally Posted by SpookyKobold

So no real argument, just using the slippery slope fallacy to complain about things that don't currently exist. That's very interesting. I wonder when we can argue whats happening in reality instead of things only in your head :\

White Mages becoming oops all light Magic back in SHB. Yes, it got Aquaveil in Endwalker, but this is still the same as if a Black Mage only had Dark spells with a touch of lightning.

Dragoon lost two charges of Spineshatter dive at the start of Dyingtrail I mean Dawntrail. THE FINAL FANTASY JOB KNOWN FOR JUMPING ATTACKS lost jumping attacks and for what?
A copy paste dash that slides you alone the ground...

Scholar got Seraphism a transformation that instead of having you wear something like the Fuath set that is linked to fae and has a touch of military aesthetics we get a white robe with angel wings.
And as an added bonus just like reaper it cuts off racial features such as Viera's large ears.

Oh, but Seraphism is small potatoes. Scholar has an even bigger example of job identity being destroyed.
You reach level 30 as an Arcanist and you start the quest to become a Scholar. After finishing it you get a nice cutscene introducing you to your new partners. Eos AND SALENE!
LV50 Where is Salene? 60, 70, 80 oh the fairy from the LB3 Hello Seraph, 90, 100 Seraphism? If it's linked to Seraph the fairy why are the wings gold and stuff? (WHM got light wings that look more fairy like.)
Wait I'm at current level cap where is Salene? Checks around. Oh, she was shot dead and made into a skinsuit for Eos... Anyway, back to Red Mage.

Due to muscle memory the range buff that only happens when using Manafication is pointless for me because I still go into melee range for the combo. Range could have gone to Phlegma a skill that doesn't have a reason to be melee in the first place.
But nope it went to a sword combo.

I was going to end with a joke, but instead I'll just say this. It starts with Manafication and eventually it could bleed into the normal Enchanted sword combo.
Corps-a-corps could become just a muted copy paste slide dash while Displacement loses its damage becoming a leap away skill. While Engagement is just flat out removed.
Causing Red Mage to lose more or its melee combat in favor of just having simple ranged attacks. Call it what you will "over exaggerating" or "not a real argument".
If it has even the smallest chance to stop that what if slippery slope from happening to another job I say go for it. Make some noise be passionate about it. So long as people are being civil and not threatening to hurt someone its fine.

After all what's the point of a forum anyway if not for this kind of thing?

Originally Posted by TKMXIV

White Mages becoming oops all light Magic back in SHB. Yes, it got Aquaveil in Endwalker, but this is still the same as if a Black Mage only had Dark spells with a touch of lightning.

Dragoon lost two charges of Spineshatter dive at the start of Dyingtrail I mean Dawntrail. THE FINAL FANTASY JOB KNOWN FOR JUMPING ATTACKS lost jumping attacks and for what?
A copy paste dash that slides you alone the ground...

Scholar got Seraphism a transformation that instead of having you wear something like the Fuath set that is linked to fae and has a touch of military aesthetics we get a white robe with angel wings.
And as an added bonus just like reaper it cuts off racial features such as Viera's large ears.

Oh, but Seraphism is small potatoes. Scholar has an even bigger example of job identity being destroyed.
You reach level 30 as an Arcanist and you start the quest to become a Scholar. After finishing it you get a nice cutscene introducing you to your new partners. Eos AND SALENE!
LV50 Where is Salene? 60, 70, 80 oh the fairy from the LB3 Hello Seraph, 90, 100 Seraphism? If it's linked to Seraph the fairy why are the wings gold and stuff? (WHM got light wings that look more fairy like.)
Wait I'm at current level cap where is Salene? Checks around. Oh, she was shot dead and made into a skinsuit for Eos... Anyway, back to Red Mage.

Due to muscle memory the range buff that only happens when using Manafication is pointless for me because I still go into melee range for the combo. Range could have gone to Phlegma a skill that doesn't have a reason to be melee in the first place.
But nope it went to a sword combo.

I was going to end with a joke, but instead I'll just say this. It starts with Manafication and eventually it could bleed into the normal Enchanted sword combo.
Corps-a-corps could become just a muted copy paste slide dash while Displacement loses its damage becoming a leap away skill. While Engagement is just flat out removed.
Causing Red Mage to lose more or its melee combat in favor of just having simple ranged attacks. Call it what you will "over exaggerating" or "not a real argument".
If it has even the smallest chance to stop that what if slippery slope from happening to another job I say go for it. Make some noise be passionate about it. So long as people are being civil and not threatening to hurt someone its fine.

After all what's the point of a forum anyway if not for this kind of thing?

To add to your examples, I'd point to Dancer.
In Dawntrail, Dancer got Finishing Move, an action which is functionally identical to Standard Finish in potency, cooldown, etc. The only difference is, you can just use it directly, without performing the RNG dance steps beforehand.
The 2min loop for Dancer previously was 4 Standard Steps (of 2 steps each), and a Technical Step (4 steps), for a total of 12 dance steps (Jete, Emboite etc)
In DT, that has now changed to 2 Standard Steps (2 steps each), 2 Finishing Moves (0 steps each) and a Technical Step (4 steps), for a total of 8 dance steps.
This is a 33% reduction in how many dance steps you perform per 2min compared to previously. You, objectively speaking, 'dance' less as a Dancer.

Another example: AST. The Job that whose Identity was centered around Tarot, an activity wherein the 'teller' draws cards from a deck at random, and interprets their meanings... Now, there is no randomness in the action of Drawing cards. You're guaranteed to get Balance, Arrow, Spire, then Spear, Bole, Ewer, and repeat. That'd be like going to a Tarot reading and seeing you, and your 3 friends, get either 'Chariot, Temperance, Sun' or 'Tower, Justice, Moon', and if you ask anyone else who goes, they'd say they got one of those two results too. People would (rightly) call it a scam! And yes, I agree with people who didn't like getting screwed by RNG, that getting screwed by RNG felt bad. You know what the solution should have been? To give the players tools to fight back against RNG and feel like they're in control of the result, not to just remove the RNG entirely

Another another example: DRK. The original design in HW was that Darkside would drain your MP, and empowered actions would cost MP too (via Dark Arts). Managing that drain, and not overspending, was so tied into the gameplay and Identity of the Job, the idea that 'let your anger empower you, but don't lose yourself to the abyss', that the Job quests themselves STILL reference this, not only as a narrative element, but as a gameplay element. The 'stand in the black fire, but not too many' in the first quest (where you kill like 10 Temple Knights about 15min after entering Ishgard), represents the idea of 'use the darkness and empower yourself', while the self-stun that happens if you take too many represents 'you went too far and now you must pay the price' (in regular gameplay, 'you drop Darkside and have to reapply it'). Over the years, due to players not being able to hold back from just blowing their load right away, SE changed Darkside from 'drains MP over time' to 'Pauses MP regeneration', to 'it is just a 10% damage buff you have to literally try to lose'. Seriously, to let Darkside fall off now, you either have to purposely not press Edge/Flood (and overcap MP like crazy), or you have to use, and fail to break, something like 3 TBNs in a row. The mechanic might as well just not exist, from a gameplay perspective, but it has to remain in this hollow shell state because it's core to the narrative of the Job. A 'shadow' of its former self, how ironic



Removing the requirement to be in Melee distance for a sword swing on RDM, would be like removing the invocation of Ninjutsu via Mudras. If SE just removed Raiton, Suiton, etc. And just made them into standard CDs (or in Suiton's case, removed it and just added the potency into Trick Attack). Some would rationalize that 'oh but it's okay, because Ninja still 'uses Ninjutsu technically'', but it'd be undeniable that it'd change the dynamic of the Job, and impact its Identity.

Another example would be... how about 'taking the Role most known for being mobile, and preventing them from being so mobile'? IE, imagine the outcry about 'the Identity of the Role' that'd happen if SE were to give Bards a castbar for their shots. It takes time to aim an arrow/gun, after all!