GNB is TERRIBLE now!

[ZorahHellmann]

no i think they're quite good actually, i don't see being punished for any bit of downtime in the previous iteration was fine or acceptable

[ForsakenRoe]

Absolute comedy, that this thread was dead and buried under several pages of other topics, for around 24 hours. Most threads that go 24h without activity are effectively 'dead'.
But suddenly, something happened within the past few hours, that brought it back into focus. Something that would make people look for this thread specifically, despite it being buried behind several pages of other topics.
Wonder what that 'something' could have been. Guess we'll never know, eh

This is why the forums aren’t taken seriously. The devs actually make a positive job change which improves QOL, heightens the job fantasy (more booms, more burst), and even creates new exciting ways to optimize and it’s still not enough for you people.

And the two minute meta has nothing to do with this. GNB was already on the two minute meta like every other job, 120 is a multiple of 60. And people should care less about damage leaderboards that won’t be relevant in the next patch instead of how satisfying it is to play

Personally, the Gnashing charges are whatever, I don't mind them adding that to alleviate drift issues. Doubling Sonic Break's DOT potency/halving its duration also has precedent, as they did that with things like Medica2 in the past, to make each tick feel more impactful, so I don't mind that either. If those were the only changes, I would have no issues, and would in fact call it 'good changes, thanks SE'. I'd even be okay with them having Bloodfest trigger the '6 Cartridges' effect, to prevent overcap/make 'exact ammo count' less of an issue going into your burst.

No, my primary concern is with the CD reduction to Bloodfest, and having to reduce all those potencies to make room for a second Lionheart combo per 2min. Changing Bloodfest into Inner Release, Lionheart into the 3 Fell Cleaves it grants, and by proxy, Double Down into Primal Rend, doesn't accentuate the GNB Identity, it just makes it feel more like every other Tank in its gameplay. Yes, 120 is a multiple of 60. Every Tank bursted at 2min. DRK still does, with a 'mini burst' at 60s and a 'full burst' at 2min when everything realigns. So why did GNB need to be moved from a 'mini burst/full burst' kind of thing, to a 'full burst every 60s' like WAR and PLD? Does DRK need Living Shadow to be changed to a 60s CD too, and for Shadowbringer to be reduced to 30s Charge time, with potency/duration reductions to facilitate this?

Job fantasy is that Lionheart, being the last Renzokuken finisher you unlock in FF8, hits very hard. It hits less hard now. I don't think that using it twice as often feels better, I think the exact opposite. Using something more often diminishes how 'cool' it feels. If their concern was the potency made it too variable in damage due to Crit Variance, there were ways to do that without resorting to 'make it feel even more like WAR/PLD'. For example, introduce Continuation steps after each hit. More booms, more Job fantasy, right?

Sod the damage leaderboards, too. You're right, people should care less about them. How satisfying something is to play, however, is entirely subjective, and whenever I needed to play Tank for something, I would prefer GNB over other Tanks specifically to try and avoid the WARification the Role has suffered, as much as possible. I figured the Healers would be the final refuge, because SE has previously been deathly allergic to adding new damage actions/'big hits' to them, but even WHM got one with Glare4 this expansion, so I guess nothing is safe from the WARificiation

[madman404]

This just tells me how uninformed you are. The change killed GNB, if other players were struggling with it, then it was a skill issue from thier side. Real GNB mains like myself didn't want any changes, it's unneeded and uncalled for.

"Real" GNB mains complained about killtimes constantly, because there's almost nothing you can do to control when your party ends a given phase. I'm guessing you've never used the job in ultimate? But it's a little weird to call someone uninformed because they have an issue with a job that is primarily relevant to content with a level of difficulty you've never touched and have no perspective on...

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Absolute comedy, that this thread was dead and buried under several pages of other topics, for around 24 hours. Most threads that go 24h without activity are effectively 'dead'.
But suddenly, something happened within the past few hours, that brought it back into focus. Something that would make people look for this thread specifically, despite it being buried behind several pages of other topics.
Wonder what that 'something' could have been. Guess we'll never know, eh

This thread was on the front page of general discussion for me, I don't know what you are going on about or how it's relevant my points

No, my primary concern is with the CD reduction to Bloodfest, and having to reduce all those potencies to make room for a second Lionheart combo per 2min. Changing Bloodfest into Inner Release, Lionheart into the 3 Fell Cleaves it grants, and by proxy, Double Down into Primal Rend, doesn't accentuate the GNB Identity, it just makes it feel more like every other Tank in its gameplay. Yes, 120 is a multiple of 60. Every Tank bursted at 2min. DRK still does, with a 'mini burst' at 60s and a 'full burst' at 2min when everything realigns. So why did GNB need to be moved from a 'mini burst/full burst' kind of thing, to a 'full burst every 60s' like WAR and PLD? Does DRK need Living Shadow to be changed to a 60s CD too-

I really think you are making a mountain out of a molehile here. Having some abilities be 120 or 60 doesn't really change the fact that every job is on the same two minute loop now. Moving one ability to every 60s vs every 120s hardly changes anything. Lionhart is a fun ability and I like being able to do it more. Otherwise you fill those odd No Mercy windows with just filler GCDs after the big buttons. Dark Knight is not a "120s job" just because it presses a single extra button during its even burst, that's ridiculous. You just seem way too hyperfixated on 120 vs 60 when in Dawntrail it barely even matters at the end of day. I'm not a 2 minute meta defender but this the current game we play in. Why is pressing a button at 60s vs 120s the end all be all for job identity in your book? I mentioned that the gnashing changes that are "whatever" to you allow for cool new optimization, that far outweighs the downsides of perceived loss of fake job identity from being a "120s job".

Trying to conflate GNB abilities with WAR abilities is also just reductive to me. Bloodspiller was rightfully called out as being too similar to Fell Cleave because it is a 50 gauge spender where you get 3 free uses every 60s. They are exactly the same. But now everything with a three step combo is Fell Cleave now? I guess Vicewinder and RDM melee combo are inner release now too. What are we even doing here? Just seems like agenda pushing. Every 60s cooldown is not Inner Release, just like every 120s CD wasn't Lionheart.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Job fantasy is that Lionheart, being the last Renzokuken finisher you unlock in FF8, hits very hard. It hits less hard now. I don't think that using it twice as often feels better, I think the exact opposite. Using something more often diminishes how 'cool' it feels. If their concern was the potency made it too variable in damage due to Crit Variance, there were ways to do that without resorting to 'make it feel even more like WAR/PLD'. For example, introduce Continuation steps after each hit. More booms, more Job fantasy, right?

This is just purely subjective on whether or not it feels less cool if you use it more. I don't think an ability needs to be every 2 minutes to feel cool. You midare every minute or more on Sam and i don't think it's less cool for it. I think FF14 could use less of super cool buttons you only ever press when your 2 minute buff procs it. Dawntrail added WAY too many of those.

[Kishin12345]

I like the changes. Gnb is more flexible now and better suited for various situations. Cutting the bloodfest cd to 60 seconds makes the job feel more active. Sometimes it even feels quite busy tbh. Overall i think this was a good step and i expect exactly this from 8.0. They wanted to bring back more stress to the encounters and 8.0 is supposed to bring back more stress and awareness to the jobs, so i think changes like these that make jobs feel like they do more is what we'll see more of.

[SyferU]

[Carin-Eri]

Absolute comedy, that this thread was dead and buried under several pages of other topics, for around 24 hours. Most threads that go 24h without activity are effectively 'dead'.
But suddenly, something happened within the past few hours, that brought it back into focus. Something that would make people look for this thread specifically, despite it being buried behind several pages of other topics.
Wonder what that 'something' could have been. Guess we'll never know, eh

Whilst I may be missing the /s in this (?) I suspect it would've had something to do with Xeno posting videos on the matter.

[Rithy255]

Oh yeah I saw the xeno video, honestly most the things were to be expected. I don't even dislike the guy, I do think he has takes that are very much "agree with me or your stupid" which I don't really like but it is what it is. I think I just have fundamental disagreements with them that's fine you don't agree with everyone in life. I did see comments saying oh I don't raid; No I just don't raid on this character (I used to when I wasn't so good at the game and new, but i switched characters a long time back now). I don't want people checking out my raid logs to see if my opinion is valuable or not in their eyes. I generally care about some level of privacy on these forums because some people are just unhinged. Though I've not done the 7.2 Savage arcadian raids I've only done M1S-M3S I am frankly a Casual Raider who isn't the best in the world though I think I should still frankly have a opinion on things lol.

My main pov is I don't think jobs need to burst every minute to be fun, I frankly don't like having similar burst profiles to begin with, 1 minute burst jobs maybe burst more and have more "fun" so to speak but I don't really think that's the right way to go about every tank design, I much rather have tanks have different burst profiles which having 2 tanks at 2 minutes and 2 tanks a 1 minutes does somewhat achieve.

On the filler question, no 1, 2, 3 isn't the only filler theirs ways of making more interesting filler I don't get why this was took as 1, 2, 3 can be the only "filler" the filler shouldn't feel boring. The point in making good filler is that instead of having a job that's only "fun to burst" (I don't personally find fellcleave, Lion heart combo ect. As fun burst) they have a fun general rotation, even when not bursting which should be the goal of good job design at least rotationally.

I think at the end of the day people are going to dislike changes in any sort of direction, my ideal for the game is that certain jobs have appeal to different players I don't think every needs to be appealing to the same player, some of that appeal is accounting for "Jank" such as Paladin having different rotations back before 6.3 things to learn, or gunbreaker being a 2 minute job with having to not overcap ammo as a part of the frustration that was took out, I think that's fine because Warrior exists to be less frustrating to people who don't like that sort of thing in their job. But the thing is people do actually into some friction and frustrating aspects about jobs, just like learning a fight will have some friction and frustrations towards it mastering a job and getting good at it feels more rewarding to me personally, hence why I enjoyed old Paladin despite most people who played tank in general but not paladin didn't like it, now people like me who did enjoy old paladin just kind of have to accept that theirs not really a tank that would give us the general satisfaction I got from playing old Paladin.

[Avenheit]

people being angry at the job changes have no idea what they're talking about.

GNB hasn't been fun since post ShB. *Until now*

These changes are a great fix, although I still hate having more than 2 cartridges and double down should just be a cooldown tide to No Mercy window since if you're pressing it outside of no mercy you're objectively playing the class wrong.

I also dislike sonic break being a GCD.