Was BLM not enough?

[Ankhira]

RDM's instant casts are far more rigid and RDM has the fewest tools out of all the casters for on-demand movement.

RDM optimization also involved minimizing fleche and C6 drift which was not always trivial because you needed to make sure your instants lined up on the correct GCDs.

And yet, that is all still there. The only thing you can do is use your melee combo from a distance, while I said before I also don't like this change, these optimizations are still there. Like, I got the Black Mage issues, I disagree with SE changing RDM this patch, but I feel like you're all acting like the job is completely ruined.. I genuinely don't get it.

Yes, I agreed, gutting jobs for raiding = bad, I hate it too, but RDM was not destroyed the way BLM was. Like...

[ForteNightshade]

People who are still hoping 8.0 will bring positive job changes need to wake up.

Not the worst changes in the world like it could have completely ruined the job, to me its more like what they did with ninja recently it's not the worst thing in the world but it's certainly a small step in the large amount of steps they've been making from SHB to now to make the jobs bland, remove all rigidness from any job that has it because 1 raider complained it was bad.

That's the thing though. It isn't one raider complaining. Apparently, Red Mage going into melee range has been a particular vocal criticism from JP. As was Black Mage prior to its changes and Gunbreaker too. The more average JP opinion seems to be encouraging job simplification. Heck, their solution to Warrior being so overpowered in dungeons wasn't to nerf Bloodwhetting, but bring the other tanks in line with Bloodwhetting because "that makes it easier on newer healers."

Even amongst the more casual pockets of my NA friends, these changes are a lot better received than some here might expect. Which is unfortunate to say the least because I, too, don't like how they've dumbed everything down in the name of "accessibility." Like it not though, some of these changes have worked. Black Mage, for example, is more popular now than it ever was. And SE seems to gauge job design based on popularity rather than niche enjoyment.

[Voidmage]

That's the thing though. It isn't one raider complaining. Apparently, Red Mage going into melee range has been a particular vocal criticism from JP. As was Black Mage prior to its changes and Gunbreaker too.

Japan side was very vocal against the BLM changes though, even more than we were.
The job change notes back then and the comment from YoshiP also outright said that the changes were because the devs themselves thought the BLM design would clash with the new fight design.

The japanese forum is partly responsible for the current healer design but definitely not for the BLM changes.
It is widely hated there and they are as ignored regarding that as we are.

BLM also might be more popular nowadays but at the cost of very unsatisfied old BLM mains.
Part of that is also simply because of it's damage to easy playstyle. When the former falls off it might have the same fate as SMN in loosing popularity fast.
Also in my personal opinion, purely chasing popularity at the cost of driving away old veterans and job mains is a very questionable strategy because word of mouth is also important and that is that the jobs in this game are in a very bad place.

Well, sorry to say that "go play something else then" has become the default answer to anyone with any complaint ever when it comes to FF14. We've had people actively encouraging others to "shut up and quit" for over a year now (if not longer), whether they were someone getting bored over easier jobs, frustrated over harder fights, or lords knows what else was their final straw.

You're just not going to find much empathy or understanding between players anymore because everyone wants the game to be THEIR way regardless of who else gets culled in the process.

Doesn't mean I accept it though, be it against the doomers or the defenders.

[Aidorouge]

There are people who mained a job for longer than some here even play the game.
Telling them to suck it up and play another one because it's now for someone else is not how a game should be designed.

And no, this is not regarding the RDM changes but in general.

Well, sorry to say that "go play something else then" has become the default answer to anyone with any complaint ever when it comes to FF14. We've had people actively encouraging others to "shut up and quit" for over a year now (if not longer), whether they were someone getting bored over easier jobs, frustrated over harder fights, or lords knows what else was their final straw.

You're just not going to find much empathy or understanding between players anymore because everyone wants the game to be THEIR way regardless of who else gets culled in the process.

[WawaMaxHeightLala]

Sigh if manafication is change here to stay at least make it spawn a fray like clone of our character so something is attacking in melee range. Just preserve the job identity at the least instead of go go gadget rapier

[Claria-Vivian]

I so hope you are right... So badly, but at this point I cant even trust them. Not becuase of DT but its been years they been just doing all this nonsense... Like there 0 faith to them, I get wow gets a lot of hate for screwing with players but at least they know what to expect. I dont have a clue here. Is my SCH gone be dumped down too now? 1 Button combos next? I dont know its a 50/50 to all of it now.

[ForsakenRoe]

All this talk about how RDM sometimes can't get into Melee range for its combo, and rather than work out a way to work around that limitation (or for SE to stop designing mechanics to be so inflexible in their resolution), it's better to just remove the issue entirely...

But SCH still has the same 'issue'. Art of War is a gain on 2 targets, if you can A: hit them both with its pretty-small, centred-on-player AOE, and B: you are actually allowed to deal damage to them both (eg, if you have a debuff that says 'you can only hit A and not B', that doesn't count as an example). A prime example would be P6 of DSR, where you can hit both dragons at once. Based on the Normal mode for the latest raid tier, and assuming we don't just get 'haha sorry you can only hit one of the two because of your debuff' again, we'll have a raid fight wherein SCH will want to use AOW for its filler instead of Broil, and will need to be in Melee range to do so.

This niche optimization, however, has yet to be an issue for SCH vs SGE in terms of balance. SGEs have been able to clear DSR despite this trick that a SCH can do. However, for whatever reason, SE refused to let SGEs have a similar DPS gain with Eukrasian Dyskrasia, where in the Media Tour, a full-duration E.Dyskrasia was 40p more than a Dosis3. The cited reason for the change was something to the effect of 'JP players felt it would be annoying to monitor a second DOT (which was 30s so you'd just refresh both at once, but that's beside the point), and they didn't want to be forced into Melee range at inopportune times to refresh it (Phlegma says hello, but that's beside the point)'. Yet, that would have been a 40p gain, once per 30s, and had to be canned. SCH's tech, meanwhile, is 40p gain EVERY GCD (Broil is 320 currently, AOW on 2 targets is a total of 360p), and yet it continues to exist as a funny niche optimization we can enjoy.

So one of two things is going on with SCH. Either SE forgot it exists, and soon it'll be SCH's turn to get a niche and ultimately not-required-to-clear optimization removed, all in the name of 'less player stress in executing rotation'. Or, SE straight up does not understand basic mathematics, and could not foresee that 'hitting 2 enemies for 180p each, is more damage than hitting 1 enemy for 320p'


I should note, I do not want SE to remove AOW being a gain on 2. I think it's a cool, niche optimization that is not required to clear content, but can be utilized by skilled players to push their damage to its maximum. My question is, why don't other Jobs get to have similar 'cool, niche optimizations that are not required to clear, but are fun to incorporate to push your damage to its maximum'? Why does every Job need to have exactly two rotations: the 'correct' one, and 'anything else (incorrect)'?

[Azurarok]

Something interesting about all this is that, had they designed a skill on a super long cooldown that let RDM do this and released it with 7.0 I may have accepted it.
That way it'd only be an emergency tool that's only available in DT content. Would've been a much more interesting addition than Vice of Thorns too.

[ForsakenRoe]

Just remembered

If this RDM change was 'to alleviate issues where RDM could not do its burst in the 2min window'

SAM still has cast times to worry about, which might potentially get interrupted by having to move. RPR also has a cast time to consider, and I remember a RPR losing their mind in P12S during Superchain because they had to move during their burst and couldn't find the time to cast the Communio, even with as short a casttime as it has.

So, what's next, SAM and RPR lose their cast times, too, because 'too stressful'?

How much more Job 'flavour' has to be burned on the pyre of accessibility, to make the Encounter Design functional for all Jobs in a role? How about SE considers going back to Encounter Design that doesn't have such inflexibility in its resolution? BLM had like, negative mobility in HW, no Triplecast, no Paradox instantcast, no Despair, and losing Enochian was FAR easier to do by accident, and FAR more punishing back then compared to something like EW, or pre-7.2 DT. And yet, despite this lack of mobility, it waas able to clear something like A7S with the big rolling ball you had to dodge, or A9S where you have to move around the arena to dodge which platform is going to sink into the lava pool. So maybe SE should stop changing Jobs to suit Encounters, and start considering that their Encounters don't suit the Jobs?

[Raikai]

or for SE to stop designing mechanics to be so inflexible in their resolution

That's the crux of the issue. The structure that RDM is inserted in won't allow you to 'be creative/skillful' about melee uptime, as it would require that ranged player to be in a ranged spot at a certain time to check past a specific mechanic. I didn't do last Savage / EXs to know if this wall appears so much that becomes prohibitive for a player to achieve a RDM's maximum potential.

BLM was a different example as the skill revolved around possibilities for the role.

I had this in mind, that CBU3 kind of cornered themselves with the "new and improved" fight design of Dawntrail. They'll have to keep dumbing down job skill expression because the structure just won't allow it.