Please just... Just change Living Dead

[Carighan]

Okay, but this is not (just) that. It punishes you for someone else reacting to your skill wrongly.

But it... doesn't punish you? ������

Like that's the whole point, either way you survived.

Unless you want to argue that LD is insanely OP because it can, in theory, be just about 20s of death protection and hence it should work the way that Walking Dead only lasts as long as the remaining duration on living dead was? Because if yes, sure, make it so that you can't be healed while LD is up. I'd agree then.

[Shurrikhan]

But it... doesn't punish you? ������

It literally does, though?

Imagine, for instance, if Excog once again only went off if you drop below 50% hp and only had a far briefer duration in which to go off.

You place Excog on a target whose HP is, with no other changes, certain to drop below 50% hp within that time. You spent an Recitation and AF, totaling a 60s, 45s, and a third of a 60s CD, for that purpose. It's worth 1200cp.

Now, once you've placed it, your cohealer prevents it from going off, thereby wasting the 1200 cp via the 60, 45, and a third of a 60s CD.

That would be the equivalent of Living Dead, except that one wastes 7500cp via a 5-minute cooldown AND 10s of unkillability.

You could say the Excog "wasn't wasted" or that others' later actions "didn't punish" the first healer's simply because the target ultimately survived regardless, but that'd make no more sense than spamming heals on a topped-off target and saying that such "wasn't wasteful because the target survived". Moreover, that's 2 GCDs of healing wasted atop a would-be Energy Drain itself. You could likewise call that Excog a "non-healing button" and act baffled that anyone expected it to actually heal, but that is objectively having one's action completely nullified (not just incidentally devalued) by others' actions.

And what happened to Excog? It was changed to give the heal eventually even if the recipient didn't drop below 50% hp, changing it from being entirely wasted by others' actions to only wasting whatever portion overhealed. Why should we think it absurd that anyone would want the same for their invuln, of all things?

Unless you want to argue that LD is insanely OP because it can, in theory, be just about 20s of death protection and hence it should work the way that Walking Dead only lasts as long as the remaining duration on living dead was? Because if yes, sure, make it so that you can't be healed while LD is up. I'd agree then.

It's 1 hit + 10s of death prevention, though, not 20s. As soon as it's actually provides even a single hp of relative mitigation (via waste of overkill portion), you're down to 10s left, and that ability to nullify damage in that way is rapidly wasted by the self-heal-per-GCD to follow.

Though, yes, I'd be fine with it just having straight 10s of death prevention and then giving 10s of lifesteal upon that first would-be death if it happens at all, for instance.

[Carighan]

That would be the equivalent of Living Dead, except that one wastes 7500cp via a 5-minute cooldown AND 10s of unkillability.

Hold on, you are now telling me that the parts of Living Dead that are entirely a beneficial uniqueness compared to the actual reason you press the invuln (to, eh, not die?!) are unfair because they might not happen 100% of the time?

And what happened to Excog? It was changed to give the heal eventually even if the recipient didn't drop below 50% hp, changing it from being entirely wasted by others' actions to only wasting whatever portion overhealed. Why should we think it absurd that anyone would want the same for their invuln, of all things?

The invuln already doesn't waste. That's kinda the counterargument against asking for a change here, that LD fulfills its function independent of whether you got healed or "died". So all such a change would do is marginally pad the DRK's healing stats (since it ensures the self-healing happens every time) but for a loss of 1s-10s of effective death protection window. And maybe even the self-healing anyways, homogenization and all, and/or getting a significantly longer CD Paladin-style.

Your sentences goes even further as a counterargument to changes, because it shows a poetic symmetry:

- A healer has an ability that guarantees the healing, but not the protective value of the heal triggering automatically (it might just not save the target).
- A tank has an ability that guarantees the protective nature (you won't die in the next 10s, no matter what), but not the self-healing the ability can sometimes provide.

(edit)
I should make clear, my issue in this particular case is not the desire for homogenization (as annoying a trend in the community as that is) but the weird assumption that LD isn't "just" an invulnerability-button that ensures you do not die for at least 10 seconds. Which it does. It absolutely does. It does what you press it for. And it's so refreshing to actually see an ability squeeze so much uniqueness (doesn't even have to proc, in return a potential 1s-10s extra protection window, strong self-heal if actually needed, cool interaction with the party) while still keeping the exact same "I won't die in the next 10s" as the other tanks have.

[Shurrikhan]

Hold on, you are now telling me that the parts of Living Dead that are entirely a beneficial uniqueness compared to the actual reason you press the invuln (to, eh, not die?!) are unfair because they might not happen 100% of the time?

Benefit is best considered in net, not just its ideal case. See RNG mitigation.

Even at its best, though, LD's only source of mitigation is identical to that of Holmgang -- wasting would-be overkill. It can add to that a 7500p self-heal (equivalent to 5770p of healer healing), but both the mitigation and the self-heal occur only if it pops. Else, it does nothing.

And again, LD is not a 20s death prevention. It's 1 hit + 10s, wherein the first 10s leading up to that 1 hit are damn near irrelevant for the simple fact that every potentially threatening thing in this game is telegraphed. Its value, then, becomes merely that you can trim up to 9s out of 300s off its cooldown (negligible) and can double-weave other actions even in the moment just before you'd need the invuln because you slightly pre-popped it (QoL). Not 20s of invuln. Not even close. If you're not getting that self-heal, it is worse than Holmgang or Superbolide for the simple fact that it has a 51-60s longer CD than the first and less sustain typically generated than the latter for any situation that'd actually call for an invuln.

The invuln already doesn't waste.

By comparison to most other invulns, an LD that never goes off is a waste, for the simple fact that most invulns are not just death-prevention now. Hell, they haven't been since ARR. Hallowed Ground and Holmgang both were not used only for emergencies to prevent a death; they were means of milking additional sustain.

That's kinda the counterargument against asking for a change here, that LD fulfills its function independent of whether you got healed or "died".

Then Hallowed Ground would "fulfill its function" even without a single point of mitigation, just from the fact that one 'needn't fear death' for 10s. And yet, again, that's not been the whole of its role since release.

the weird assumption that LD isn't "just" an invulnerability-button that ensures you do not die for at least 10 seconds. Which it does. It absolutely does.

To assume that LD, which can do a hell of a lot more than just preventing death and which deserves parity against other skills (or consequent kits of jobs with an invuln) that each do a hell of a lot more than just preventing death is not a "weird assumption". That it prevents death for 10s in a game where there is zero chance of a freak sudden untelegraphed death does not put it on par with things that give actual throughput atop said prevention of death for 10s or have a shorter cooldown.

It does what you press it for.

Like any other modern invuln, I press it for the total sustain it can provide. Of those, only one other (Holmgang) can be remotely screwed over, and not half so badly as LD (merely wasting the mit rather than also the full self-heal).

And it's so refreshing to actually see an ability squeeze so much uniqueness

What uniqueness beyond its ability to get screwed to uniquely great extent in exchange for being pre-poppable to negligible or zero benefit? The rest is just Holmgang with (an empowered) Divine Magic Mastery II granted for 10s.

Your sentences goes even further as a counterargument to changes, because it shows a poetic symmetry:

- A healer has an ability that guarantees the healing, but not the protective value of the heal triggering automatically (it might just not save the target).
- A tank has an ability that guarantees the protective nature (you won't die in the next 10s, no matter what), but not the self-healing the ability can sometimes provide.

There is no "poetic symmetry" to that because there is no "protective value/nature" separate from sustain except where the sustain required is unknowable, which is never the case in this game. There aren't even any random blows dealing half a tank's life, let alone random one-shots.

A heal like ExCog going off under 50% health is not inherently "protective" or death-preventing; it's just a way to front-load a heal from one Aetherflow cycle into the next.

An invuln meanwhile, like any other defensive, serves no purpose unless it provides actual sustain -- be that in the form of mit [max and current HP increase, barrier, or %DR] or healing [percentile like Macrocosmos, target-health-based, or SP-based/flat]. Preventing all incoming damage once already at 1 hp via Holmgang or WD's death-prevention is sustain. If it doesn't actually manage that, though, the invuln was wasted; mere 10s of peace of mind (collapsible with the auto-attack immediately after) is not an effective use of an invuln, and parity should not be judged according to each skill's least effective use.

[Carighan]

An invuln meanwhile, like any other defensive, serves no purpose unless it provides actual sustain -- be that in the form of mit [max and current HP increase, barrier, or %DR] or healing [percentile like Macrocosmos, target-health-based, or SP-based/flat]. Preventing all incoming damage once already at 1 hp via Holmgang or WD's death-prevention is sustain. If it doesn't actually manage that, though, the invuln was wasted; mere 10s of peace of mind (collapsible with the auto-attack immediately after) is not an effective use of an invuln, and parity should not be judged according to each skill's least effective use.

And yet here you are, not actually wanting Hallowed Ground and Superbollide to be changed to block incoming shielding, lest their sustain is wasted.

It's a weird argument, isn't it? Why is it a waste if LD doesn't get to provide you 0-5 GCDs worth of healing and if you "never die", yet somehow the other tank invulns aren't a problem if external sources cause you to not actually mitigate or mitigate much with them (WHM AoE Stun spam, shields, big burst killing the mob group too quick, anything really).

Because, and yeah sure, maybe this ought to be a universal thing? If you press your invuln, you are guaranteed to get the maximum sustain it could have provided no matter what? But then how would that work? After all, a healer would rightfully be annoyed if a DRK griefing by pressing their LD mid-ability blocks their big 3m CD benediction. Would heals "slide off" to other targets? What if none exist? Would CDs be refunded? Should invulns refund their CDs based on how much damage you took vs how much you could have? Like, only take 30% of your HP as damage during your 10s invuln -> get 70% CD back?

... now that I think about the last one sounds kinda interesting as an idea, especially if it also applies to healing and damage CDs if they overheal or overkill.

(edit)
How universal is your view on this, btw? Like, Shadowed Vigil is guaranteed to provide its big burst heal as it works exactly like Excog, right?
But, if healers keep you up enough to never drop below 16%, that 20% HP-increase from Great Nebula on poor GNB did nothing, right? How would that be changed to ensure it isn't, well, wasted mitigation? And if not, how is that not wasted optional sustain but LD's self-healing is? And don't get me wrong, if applied universally I can see the point behind your argument, but that'd be a lot of cases of "potentially wasted bonus sustain/mitigation" to cover.

[Shurrikhan]

And yet here you are, not actually wanting Hallowed Ground and Superbollide to be changed to block incoming shielding, lest their sustain is wasted.

It's a weird argument, isn't it? Why is it a waste if LD doesn't get to provide you 0-5 GCDs worth of healing and if you "never die".

Again, it's the difference between a sustain tool having some waste due to overcapping (such as a heal upon heal) vs. having conditionally zero contribution (such as a would-be heal being prevented from going off).

Everything else that behaved similarly has been changed for good reason.

If you press your invuln, you are guaranteed to get the maximum sustain it could have provided no matter what?

Jesus, this is like your third strawman already.

Not "guaranteed maximum", but merely offering control or visual intelligibility as not to have even its chance at any throughput prevented.

That could be the DRK being able to activate WD on its own any time during LD's (the pre-activation period's) duration. That could be it at least granting the self-heal effect at the end of LD. That could be a mere skull and doom timer appearing above the DRK during LD and, recolored, during WD. Whatever.

After all, a healer would rightfully be annoyed if a DRK griefing by pressing their LD mid-ability blocks their big 3m CD benediction.

Not my idea. Nothing to do with me. So why the hell is this a response to me? Wrong. Poster.

Should invulns refund their CDs based on how much damage you took vs how much you could have?

No. Merely like the changes to ExCog, skills shouldn't have even their potential value (e.g., whatever portion wouldn't be overhealing or mitigation duration spent on non-combat) completely prevented by others' actions beyond the normal being PKed by some encounter mechanic.

... now that I think about the last one sounds kinda interesting as an idea

Cool. Still has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

Like, Shadowed Vigil is guaranteed to provide its big burst heal as it works exactly like Excog, right?

That's not merely my "view"; it's literally how the skill works. It's how everything except LD works.

But, if healers keep you up enough to never drop below 16%, that 20% HP-increase from Great Nebula on poor GNB did nothing, right?

No, that's not how Great Nebula works. The bonus is a ToB, both increasing max eHP by 20% (in total, 100%, given the 40% DR atop it) AND a 20% of maximum health heal (worth ~42% of normal max eHP) regardless.

And if not, how is that not wasted optional sustain but LD's self-healing is?

Because both Great Nebula and Shadowed Vigil literally cannot have their healing effect prevented from going off, while LD's can be. What is confusing about this?

The first can only go to waste by overhealing, and the second cannot go to waste from anything other than receiving zero would-be damage over its whole duration. The third can be made to absolutely nothing.

And don't get me wrong, if applied universally

The only thing missing from a universal application is LD; the rest of the constraints are your head-canon and nothing to do with what I've said.

a lot of cases of "potentially wasted bonus sustain/mitigation"

No, it's one. Literally just one. Everything else follows the same norm: you can overcap [healing], fail to use up [bonus health / barriers] before their duration ends, and can happen to take little would-be damage during a [%DR]; since the ExCog change soon after its release (with everything since, except LD, in keeping with that change) nothing else is prevented from having any of its effects by which one even could get value out of the skill from going off.

[Kishin12345]

It is the same with TBN. They should finally change it so that the shield breaks after the timer expires. It happens so often that the shield just doesnt break and i lose 1 edge.....