Paladin: Reworking Niche Skills

[Valence]

I'm just not sure that the change making heals get +25% to match the HP increase was the correct solution though, that was total homogenization before its time tbh. There is virtually little difference between a +25% HP +25% healing tank and a 20% mitigation tank tbh, it's just rescaling damage/healing at this point.
If WAR had actual mechanics revolving around HP (like in pvp), that would actually make sense though.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm just not sure that the change making heals get +25% to match the HP increase was the correct solution though, that was total homogenization before its time tbh. There is virtually little difference between a +25% HP +25% healing tank and a 20% mitigation tank tbh, it's just rescaling damage/healing at this point.
If WAR had actual mechanics revolving around HP (like in pvp), that would actually make sense though.

Agreed. The only difference then was the oversight in abilities and many parts of WAR self-healing not being affected, in exchange for bigger spread-Adlos.

The larger homogenization, still, though, was in giving Warrior any mit skills instead of remaining focused simply on healing from damage dealt. In either case, /sigh.

[Rithy255]

Agreed. The only difference then was the oversight in abilities and many parts of WAR self-healing not being affected, in exchange for bigger spread-Adlos.

The larger homogenization, still, though, was in giving Warrior any mit skills instead of remaining focused simply on healing from damage dealt. In either case, /sigh.

I don't think War simply would work without mitigations, Obviously a Larger default HP pool would offset this a bit I do think the Job would still need some Mitigations.

What I'd like to see from Warrior is going back to choose between your short self heal and your short mit, having that base Hp health increase, Having strong SELF healing options I think Life steal shouldn't be potency based again as that just leads to AOE being a mass benediction, War would be a reactive tank but with some proactive options where they need that extra Mitigation, which would give up self heal.

For Other tanks, I'd love it if Drk was more Shielding focused, Perhaps a way to augment between magic & Physical Defensives where you'd require some fight knowledge for more effective mitigations, slow life steal and drains over time.
For PLD, I think instead of having Healing tied to sheltrons and magic attacks, have MP spenders tied to your healing so you have to manage your self heal in a way that doesn't eat into your MP destroying your burst, it would add some skill expression to the job and let them still emergency help while costing MP, I think they should have pretty strong self mitigations and good utility.
For GNB, Not 100% but a jack of all trades high APM DPS tank direction seems good. Perhaps making it harder to execute but rewarding by being slightly more ahead would be nice.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think War simply would work without mitigations, Obviously a Larger default HP pool would offset this a bit I do think the Job would still need some Mitigations.

Well, it needs max-eHP increases, in whatever form that may take, yes.

Mit increases max and current eHP and the value of heals' HP consumed over its duration of effect. Max-and-current HP increases like ToB increase only the first two. Heals increase only current, etc., etc.

But to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that Warrior should never have gotten mitigation, only that one supplying max eHP and healing-value separately via Defiance and together via Shield Oath's mit was much less homogenizing than just Warrior getting far more defensive CDs down the line, some almost identical to PLD's.

For my part, I just wanted to see more risk-reward stance-dancing that could amount to a slightly higher total output than most but with less security and a bit more accordant support required. E.g., Defiance and Deliverance might each have some benefit for gauge held and a different benefit briefly after spending gauge (on Inner Beast or Fell Cleave, Steel Cyclone or Decimate), with a higher chance of reactive (e.g., from Crit damage dealt or on damage taken) gauge generation while at low gauge. You'd ideally layer those buffs for big pay-offs at a specific time, smoothly but deliberately weaving a more offensive and defensive focus, where the offense can indirectly prep a stronger later defense (e.g., if Armor generated is based on damage dealt and Deliverance spenders build Crit chance) and vice versa (at least in the context of MTing).

[Carighan]

I don't think War simply would work without mitigations, Obviously a Larger default HP pool would offset this a bit I do think the Job would still need some Mitigations.

A 40% damage reduction skill allows you to exactly survive as much damage as a 66.6...% HP increase would. So if Damnation were changed to grant, say, a 70% max-HP increase and you start with that HP filled, that's the same effective survivability, a tad more in fact.

Reducing damage versus having more health and then re-healing it is a wash, balance wise. It's marginally worse against repeated fast hits, and moderately stronger against non-spike damage (assuming not all healing is active and on shared CDs). But the actual survivability against spike damage is the same.

[Rithy255]

Snip.

I think sure you can have war have cooldowns that strictly increase its health at a baseline to replace mitigations but it would be kinda just weird to have a tank that has 6 billion hp while the other tanks have Mitigation.

Let me be clear though I'm not opposed to warrior having more base HP, I think it should have a 20% Max health passive, while its mitigations are weaker (but still present in a form) so that it does have more of a separate identity without just insane HP increases to match the ever increasing Mitigation tanks have been getting.

I think Warrior having a Larger health pool at base and choosing between strong self heals or mitigation (such as old nascent vs old raw int) would actually make the tank more dynamic then having cooldowns that only serve the purpose to increase wars base health, as that pratically falls under the same use case as shields.

Warriors Base health being higher should in part serve as a way to make the mitigations less effective, Warrior could get away with having a weaker 20% and 40% if it were too, I do not think they should be replaced with exlusive hp gains, I also think If you add some defensive complexity in situational choices between Mitigation and self healing (This is why I like a Dark knight that could mitigate both magic/physical but it would be a choice and would depend on fight knowledge, similarily a warrior would have to mitigate, but require healing in high damage tank buster situations, but also could self heal through autos and handle themselves in some situations).

I think in order to have tanks be more unique they need stronger niches and differences in how their mitigation kits feel, You do need all tanks to compete at a baseline while doing this as you can't have one tank just be absolutely awful in a piece of content just because it can't mitigate a certain thing Example: Old PLD that couldn't block Magic mitigation, it felt awful (so I've heard anyway I didn't play in HW lol)

For me I think some similarities must exist, sure a Warrior with a mass amount of HP extension cooldowns could work I just don't think it would actually make the job anymore interesting, rather then having a active mitigation vs heal choice in your own kit; I also think tanks like PLD should become a strong support choice, DRK as I've said should switch between magic/physical, GNB can be a slightly higher dps maximiser job Ect. I think having more active instances where tanks should protect a party member and more rotational complexity alongside some more kit diversity is the direction to take tanks without making them feel awful to play.

A side note is I think role action cooldowns like Rampart, reprisal and even low blow should become job skills instead, even if they remain the same or very similar I think making these cooldowns look more unique would actually help a lot, I do hope they could add some small benefit, Lets say PLDs reprisal instead is a 60s CD 10s dur aoe mitigation on the party for 10% and increases healing by 5%, Drk gets reprisal (cuz it used to be its skill), that lasts for 15s instead of 10s, Warrior gets some intimidating Shout that maybe reduces enemy damage for 15-20% but is on a longer cooldown like 90s (so wacky and different) But you get the idea right? Role Actions serve no purpose is the main point, Even fundamental skills should have a unique animation depending on the job role actions will not make sense ever unless they have some level of customizability in a lot of cases it just looks odd rampart doesn't even look good on most tanks because it was designed as a PLD skill, same goes for reprisal.